washing machine off solar?

[jamjamdave]

hmmm... Two hours to do a load? Seems excessive.
I have a year old Maytag, 102L capacity compared to your 58L LG. Did a half load this morning and the maytag consumed 100Wh total, same as yours. Wp was much higher with it's 800rpm spin cycle but run time much less, closer to 45 minutes before ready to hang on the solar clothes dryer.

There are a few different options that affect the wash time. I go for Eco Cotton as it uses the least water/kg of clothes (probably washes for longer with less water) and you can load the machine with more clothes at one time. There are other options like "Intensive 60" which washes in 60min but then you should only put in 4kg of clothes. But it is definitely possible that your Maytag is better for this application (that brand doesn't seem to exist here).

The main challenge I had in researching this was to know what the Wp would be during a wash cycle. That info doesn't seem to exist anywhere - which makes correctly sizing the inverter difficult. As you know, the kick in Wp of a motor can be 7x the motor wattage for a split second and unfortunately none of the manufacturers seem to have that figure on hand. LG can tell you how many Wh used during the different cycles and also Wp for the spin cycle, but that number seems to be the more constant W consumed during the fast spin and not based on the initial Wp in overcoming inertia. I think most of you have massive 2KW+ inverters so this is less of a concern. Pure sinewave inverters here are pricey so getting the smallest inverter that can handle the job in the long term is important.

The trick now is teaching the mamas at the lodge who can't read or write how to get all the settings right without by mistake doing a hot wash!

[ChrisOlson]

Of course I will be lucky to get 3 years out of this battery, but at a cost of $100/battery that is acceptable. The forklift batteries don't really work in these small applications. Even the Trojan's are a problem as the cheap controllers max their absorb voltage at 14.4V which isn't enough to fully charge a Trojan which leads to one or more cells going "dormant".

I would agree that a cheap marine deep cycle being very intermittently cycled like that is a better option than industrial traction type. Like the Trojan IND-series for floor sweepers are a bear to charge with an RE system, even with a good controller. The cheap marine deep cycle will probably last longer due to its more moderate charging requirement compared to the industrial type, which would require grid or generator power, or overkill on solar capacity, to properly charge it.

If you are going to do several loads of clothes in a row, and use several times a week, then the thin plate marine deep cycle will probably not last very long, though. Most people get 3 - 4 years out of them on a trolling motor in a boat.
--
Chris

[FloridaSun]

There are a few different options that affect the wash time.

The main challenge I had in researching this was to know what the Wp would be during a wash cycle. That info doesn't seem to exist anywhere - which makes correctly sizing the inverter difficult. As you know, the kick in Wp of a motor can be 7x the motor wattage for a split second and unfortunately none of the manufacturers seem to have that figure on hand. LG can tell you how many Wh used during the different cycles and also Wp for the spin cycle, but that number seems to be the more constant W consumed during the fast spin and not based on the initial Wp in overcoming inertia. I think most of you have massive 2KW+ inverters so this is less of a concern. Pure sinewave inverters here are pricey so getting the smallest inverter that can handle the job in the long term is important.

yessir... the settings do make a difference and I haven't tried but one using the kill a watt meter. This Maytag has auto water level setting, only fills per weight of load sensed and difficult to check just how full it is as it locks the lid once started. Seems like a great washer but takes some getting used to ...like when I first used it... pushed the start button... nothing happened. Thought I had a defective machine! hahaha, never had a computerized machine before and did not realize it was started but sensing the load and then learned to push the button and walk away from it, let it do it's thing.
There may be many low watt use machines sold today and would be interesting to hear from more here on appliance watt use. The industry doesn't seem to bother with info, only what amp breaker is needed (15A @ 120V for mine) stated in their specs. Have yet to pull the machine out and read specs on back label which might be more informative.
Smaller inverters are not only cheaper but can be more efficient too, saving watts in solar systems. I plan on having several eventually, add to my present 400W PSW. I'm a fan of redundancy anyway so if by chance one fails there is backup to run essentials. Next step for me is a 600 or 700W PSW. Not all of us go out and buy a 2000W inverter, thinking it will provide all the power needed without considering our battery bank voltage and Ah rating.
hehe, I'm happy to be using grid power for the wash, less than 2 cents per load.

[Sunking]

Sunking - you are very confusing. Where do you get your information from?

Try to follow along. I get my information from James Surrette the executive officer of Rolls/Surrette Battrery, and my Sales Rep Patrick Friesen whom I have worked with for over 10 years at Rolls/Surrette in Canada.

Have you ever worked with or on a 12-CS-11P battery? They are all deep cycle batteries. The 12-CS-11P has Rolls' world-famous CS plates. CS = Cranking/Starting.

Yes I have and you are right, they are Deep Cycle batteries which is exactly why they are not Cranking/Starting batteries.

CS DOES NOT = Cranking/Starting. You are making that up and showing your ignorance. CS = Plate Size Code and treatment. Treated with Resistox. Width = 5.625, Height = 10.75. Thickness = .26. CS is one of the heaviest thickest plates Rolls uses which means it is NOT A CRANKING, STARTING, TRACTION. STATION, or any form of a hybrid or cranking battery. It means it is a DEEP CYCLE ONLY application. So if you have a boat or generator using it as a Starting battery you really screwed up by your own ignorance. It may work, but poorly especially in cold weather and a really POOR choice. If you needed that kind of size you should have at least got a hybrid or AGM. In the same size and weight would deliver 300% more CCA.

Here is the proof. Scroll down to the bottom of the document and see what CS really means. You just got BUSTED. It is the Flooded Railroad battery section. Scroll down to the bottom for PLATE CODES and SEE what CS is and quit making things up. Note there is no 12CS11PS in RR batteries. RR's do not use 12 volt batteries. For Starting RR use plate codes HHG, EHG, NS and CH which are some of the thinnest plates Rolls makes. Care to guess why. So they can deliver very high CCA and MCA current, exactly what you want in a starting and cranking battery.

Their FS plates, also used in marine deep cycle, are smaller motive power batteries. FS = Floor Scrubber. They are thinner, .170" positive grid, designed for less intensive cycling and shorter life. All of Surrette's lower price point marine deep cycle batteries have FS plates.

This is the only thing you got right, and only half right. FS does equal Floor Sweeper. That means it is a hybrid battery, a cross between Cranking Battery and Deep Cycle Battery. It has thinner plates than a Deep Cycle so they can deliver higher discharge currents than Deep Cycle batteries without excessive voltage sag, but cannot deliver as much current or CCA as a true starting battery. It is a trade off. You cannot have both high CCA and DEEP CYCLE in the same battery. Thin plates = high current short cycle life. Thick plates = lower discharge/charge current, deep cycle with long cycle life.

Chris you know just enough to be dangerous when it comes to batteries. You should be asking questions, not answering questions or giving advice about batteries. You simply do not know what you are talking about, and make things up when you do not know what you are talking about.

[ChrisOlson]

Chris you know just enough to be dangerous when it comes to batteries. You should be asking questions, not answering questions or giving advice about batteries. You simply do not know what you are talking about, and make things up when you do not know what you are talking about.

Oh. And who made you the "expert"? I got news for ya'. The Surrette 12-CS-11P is the single most popular battery on the water for yachts with 24V systems - used for for starting the propulsion engines. Normally arranged in two banks. With the selector switch you can switch banks for starting either propulsion engine, or if they've been run down on house power you parallel the banks with the selector for starting.

There's a reason they supply a MCA rating on them.

I don't really give a flyin' crap what you think they're good for. I know what they're good for. And before you spout off any more about things you don't know about, I would suggest you check with Jamie Surrette or your rep on that.
--
Chris

[Mike90250]

Confucius Say: Man with 2 watches, never knows what time it really is.

And so it goes on the forums. 2 learned individuals, and each sees things differently.

And Rolls adds to the mess with FS- floor sweeper, and CS something non-intuitive.

BE nice gentlemen.

[ChrisOlson]

And Rolls adds to the mess with FS- floor sweeper, and CS something non-intuitive.

Yeah, sorry Mike. It's easy to get tunnel vision, but it's also frustrating when somebody tells me you can't do something that I see being done every day.

We got our Surrettes from Diesel Supply in Hudson, WI because they're only 50 miles from us and they've been a Surrette dealer for 29 years. They told me the 4000-series are floor scrubber type and that's what FS plate code stands for. The 5000-series are are primarily traction and heavy duty cranking/starting and that's what the CS plate code stands for. They sell those 12-CS-11P's for just about every yacht with diesels in it on the Mississippi and Lake Superior for starting batteries and house power. They use them in Warren locomotives, order picker forklifts, those electric construction scafolding trucks, and on and on. They are used in just about everything else imaginable where a heavy duty battery that will experience deep discharges - and THEN have to start an engine or drive a traction or lift motor - is required.

That's what I was told by people that have been exclusively selling and servicing Surrette batteries for 29 years. And that's why I would suggest checking with Surrette yourself because they sell VERY few 5000-series batteries for RE. Most people buy the floor scrubber ones in the L-16 size, like S-530's, for RE.
--
Chris

[Sunking]

That's what I was told by people that have been exclusively selling and servicing Surrette batteries for 29 years. And that's why I would suggest checking with Surrette yourself because they sell VERY few 5000-series batteries for RE. Most people buy the floor scrubber ones in the L-16 size, like S-530's, for RE.

Then you are simply being sold a bill of goods by sales and marketing folks.

The reason they do not sale a lot of 5000 series for solar is pricing. However Rolls makes a total of 14 batteries in the 5000 series family. Every one of them is listed in the RE line up. In Rolls Flooded RE family are the 4000, 5000, and now a new line up 4500. The difference between each series is plate thickness with the 5000 series having the heaviest thickest plates. It also affects the warranty as the 4000 and 4500 series are a 7 year warranty, and 5000 is a 10 year warranty. Also note when you look at the CCA specs the 5000 has the lowest rating. Here is the full list of Rolls RE series on a printable page.

As for CCA and MCA, yes Rolls does publish those numbers for all batteries. That does not mean all of them are intended to be used as starting and cranking. If you look at all series CCA and MCA side by side in terms of Amp Hours the 5000 series has the lowest CCA and MCA of all of them. The reason is simple is because the 5000 series have the thickest heaviest plates. Other manufactures like Trojan do not publish CCA or MCA in their Flooded Deep Cycle batteries, only AGM lines. They certainly could publish and market them for starting but they do not because they are poor choices for starting and cranking because internal resistances are too high. The most important factor for starting batteries is CCA and MCA. You want as high of a CCa and MCA money can buy. It is Cranking Amps that start motors, not amp hours.

Can you press a Deep Cycle battery into cranking service? Yes you can but at a cost, lower cranking amps. That is why as you stated Chris you have to put the 12CS11PS in parallel to get the cranking amps up high enough to be effective. A much more effective design is to use a starting battery, battery isolator, and an auxiliary Deep Cycle battery for house house power to run the lights, navigation, fridge etc... You get the best of both worlds and no need for a switch if you over discharge the house batteries. You are correct when you say I do not know a lot about ships. However I do know a lot about ships, especially USN submarines and freighters. Nuke subs obviously do not use starting batteries, they use traction batteries. The largest of them is a dedicated set for the propulsion motor. smaller in size is dedicated sets for life support, communications, and Missile/Torpedo fire control tubes. Freighters do use starting batteries for diesel engines a dedicated set for the main engines and another for the auxiliary engines to generate ship house power. Like subs they also have dedicated batteries for nav/com and emergency lighting in the event the main and aux engine fails.

So if you and others want to use deep cycle batteries for cranking have at it. Rolls appears to be the only manufacture touting Deep Cycle batteries for starting.cranking which I do not blame them because it generates cash, but there are better solutions out there for that purpose.

[ChrisOlson]

The reason they do not sale a lot of 5000 series for solar is pricing. However Rolls makes a total of 14 batteries in the 5000 series family. Every one of them is listed in the RE line up. In Rolls Flooded RE family are the 4000, 5000, and now a new line up 4500. The difference between each series is plate thickness with the 5000 series having the heaviest thickest plates.

Sunking - only some of them. Like the 8V locomotive starting batteries for 64V EMD locomotives are 5000-series and they have thinner plates, IIRC, than even the 4000-series floor scrubber types. The main difference between the 4000 and 5000 series is that 5000-series have replaceable cells and are dual container so they are spill proof in high vibration applications like marine. If you get a single bad cell in a 4000-series the whole battery has to be replaced. In a 5000-series you can replace the defective cell, just like any other traction battery. And I really like the Surrette 12-CS-11P over like a Crown or GB Industrial forklift battery because they have bolted interconnects. If you've ever had one apart, they are pretty cool. The interconnects are like the standard lug or "flag" post, but they meet the post on the adjacent cell and they are bolted together with stainless steel bolts. Most forklift batteries have soldered interconnects, however some companies like GB offers bolted interconnects too.

In marine, in smaller cabin cruisers with like gas Volvo-Penta propulsion, they will use smaller starting batteries and have a separate house bank. These boats are usually not considered "live aboard" so they don't spend big money on batteries in them. They use cheaper 4D and 8D sizes for house power and usually (these days) AGM marine cranking batteries for starting. These boats are 12V systems.

In larger yachts, the battery banks make most off-grid RE system banks look like a toy. In medium size boats up to 60 feet 24V is most common. Larger yachts use 8V batteries @ 32V system. Our yacht is 58 feet, 106,000 lb hull displacement. It has two 24V battery banks @ 750ah each. If we don't rent a slip at a marina so we anchor in the bay and use the skiff to run to shore, rather than running the onboard generator, we run off one house bank with the inverter. The other bank is "reserved" for propulsion engine starting. However, if you're anchored someplace for two weeks you may end up using both banks for house power. If the banks are down to 50%, then we parallel them with the selector for starting the Cats. The selector directs bank power to engine #1 or #2 and you have to start one engine, then flip the selector to the other engine and start that one.

The propulsion engines have 135A 24V alternators that each charge one bank. And we can also charge the banks with shore power, or with the onboard generator thru the inverter/charger, one at a time.

The reason the 12-CS-11P is so popular for yachts is because hardly anybody else, except for Deka, builds batteries that are suited for it. Some people have tried the cheaper 4D and 8D marine batteries in yachts and they're lucky to get 2-3 years out of them. Invariably a cell goes bad in one battery, they don't catch it right away, and they wipe out a whole bank with those cheap ones because of one bad cell. Then one day the bank goes dead, so they figure something must be wrong. Go down in the engine room and here the whole bank is boiled dry. So then they go, "WTF? Those batteries are only 3 years old." Well, DUH! Most people that own yachts might be able to make big deals on Wall Street, but otherwise they don't know which end of the wrench to hold, much less properly maintain their house banks. Marinas make BIG money on yacht batteries. And you can go to Georgetown, Grand Caymen, and guess what kind of batteries they got in stock at the marina? Surrette. They absolutely LOVE it when somebody comes in with a dead bank of 8D's.
--
Chris

[Sunking]

Chris here is where I am coming from. I am a huge fan of Rolls when it comes to their 4000 and 5000 series batteries used in RE applications. Even learning to like the 4500 series. RE applications are completely different than Traction and Starting. They completely different jobs to do. When it comes to Traction and Starting applications internal resistance is the name of the game and most important characteristics. I understand Rolls markets the 5000 series for Locomotive and Marine starting applications. But fact is they are not best batteries for that application. There are other manufactures out there with a better product and even better warranties.

Have you looked at Exide's GNB Element or KDZ lineup?

[Bfayer]

I am just an average lurker around here and I am not taking sides in any of this discussion about battery design.

I do have to point out however that ChrisOlson is correct when he states that there are a lot of folks in the marine industry that use Rolls batteries for starting small and mid size diesels, and they have been doing it for a long time. Not saying it's a good or bad choice, just saying they do it.

My background: over 29 years of active duty Coast Guard service.

[Sunking]

My background: over 29 years of active duty Coast Guard service.

What does the USCG use?

[Bfayer]

What does the USCG use?

For small and mid size diesels?

For the most part now a days, AGMs like Odyssey and lifeline. Keep in mind, our requirements are not the same as either a Yacht owners or commercial operations. We never shut down and run hotel services off battery, so we have no need for deep cycle capability.

Large diesels are generally started with compressed air or hydraulic.

[Sunking]

For small and mid size diesels?

Both. I am former USN albeit 33 years ago.

[Sunking]

For the most part now a days, AGMs like Odyssey and lifeline.

Great batteries especially Concorde Lifeline which is Mil Spec.