washing machine off solar?

[ChrisOlson]

On a side note, from one Great lakes sailor to another, I was part of the team that converted White Shoals Lighthouse in lake Michigan to solar. Each and every one of the batteries was carried by hand to the lantern deck by one person (all 36 of them).

Cool. You can almost see that lighthouse at night without the lamp. My wife calls it the "candy cane".
--
Chris

[Sunking]

Sunking - no. When ever we have bought stuff we always go to the brick and mortar store. We have never bought stuff over the internet like a lot of people do now. There are no dealers around here for the other brands,

There is my point Chris. You only have experience with one flavor; Vanilla.

[Naptown]

It has always amazed me what people will climb on to and sail off into the middle of the ocean (or lake) in without a second thought.

On a side note, from one Great lakes sailor to another, I was part of the team that converted White Shoals Lighthouse in lake Michigan to solar. Each and every one of the batteries was carried by hand to the lantern deck by one person (all 36 of them).

Not everyone can afford a true blue water boat. That said there is a distinction between a boat certified to carry paying passengers and one that is not.
This is not to say that sailing an inherently dangerous boat for conditions that could be encountered is prudent.

I have sailed for 30 years.mostly keel boats ranging from 23- 40 feet.
Also a lot of time in dingy's such as lasers and 420's

The key is knowing your and the boat's limitations.

Sailing offshore or for that matter the Great Lakes which can have conditions as bad as offshore does require a boat suited for the purpose.
Not necessarily meeting passenger carrying certification levels.
It is a matter of personal risk and an indiciduals tolerance of risk and potential hazard

[Bfayer]

Back when we were looking for a boat to buy we looked at several that were maintained that way. Usually a boat that was repossessed, or the people that own it couldn't afford it in the first place. So it ends up cobbled. A surveyor will take one look at a boat like that and you won't even get insurance on it without tearing it down to the bare hull and completely refitting it. And chances are, you get it down to the hull and the hull has problems too.
--
Chris

It has always amazed me what people will climb on to and sail off into the middle of the ocean (or lake) in without a second thought.

On a side note, from one Great lakes sailor to another, I was part of the team that converted White Shoals Lighthouse in lake Michigan to solar. Each and every one of the batteries was carried by hand to the lantern deck by one person (all 36 of them).

[ChrisOlson]

In not so well run vessels you are as likely to find Sears or Kmart car batteries as anything else, often using Vice-grips as battery terminals

Back when we were looking for a boat to buy we looked at several that were maintained that way. Usually a boat that was repossessed, or the people that own it couldn't afford it in the first place. So it ends up cobbled. A surveyor will take one look at a boat like that and you won't even get insurance on it without tearing it down to the bare hull and completely refitting it. And chances are, you get it down to the hull and the hull has problems too.
--
Chris

[Naptown]

And thank you for your service to our country

[Bfayer]

Great batteries especially Concorde Lifeline which is Mil Spec.

Most of the newer AGMs are pretty good. We don't get to pick brand names, we specify performance requirements and whoever wins the contract gets to pick the brand (as long as it meets the requirements). Lifeline has a good rep in the fleet but so do Northstar, Odyssey, and others.

We also don't wait for batteries to die, we generally replace them on a schedule.

Outside the Coast Guard, Rolls are very common in well run civilian vessels. In not so well run vessels you are as likely to find Sears or Kmart car batteries as anything else, often using Vice-grips as battery terminals

Thanks for your service in the Navy.

[ChrisOlson]

Have you looked at Exide's GNB Element or KDZ lineup?

Sunking - no. When ever we have bought stuff we always go to the brick and mortar store. We have never bought stuff over the internet like a lot of people do now. There are no dealers around here for the other brands, other than the really cheap ones like Walmart. Our dealer rebuilds locomotive trucks and traction motors, EMD engines and generators, dynamic braking grids, and the head power units for EMD locomotives as well as handling Surrette batteries. They have new "jars" in stock for the 5000-series, and they usually have good used "jars" if you have an older battery that needs one.

I don't know of any other place to go around here that has that kind of service.

So we just have not looked at other types because we have a dealer where we can just walk in with a bad "jar" and walk out with a new one, no questions asked. If it's a warranty they'll take care of it. If it's not they'll give you a good deal on a good used "jar". My experience with trying to get any warranty on batteries from other places over the years, even if the battery has totally failed inside the warranty period, has not been all that great.
--
Chris

[Sunking]

For the most part now a days, AGMs like Odyssey and lifeline.

Great batteries especially Concorde Lifeline which is Mil Spec.

[Sunking]

For small and mid size diesels?

Both. I am former USN albeit 33 years ago.

[Bfayer]

What does the USCG use?

For small and mid size diesels?

For the most part now a days, AGMs like Odyssey and lifeline. Keep in mind, our requirements are not the same as either a Yacht owners or commercial operations. We never shut down and run hotel services off battery, so we have no need for deep cycle capability.

Large diesels are generally started with compressed air or hydraulic.

[Sunking]

My background: over 29 years of active duty Coast Guard service.

What does the USCG use?

[Bfayer]

I am just an average lurker around here and I am not taking sides in any of this discussion about battery design.

I do have to point out however that ChrisOlson is correct when he states that there are a lot of folks in the marine industry that use Rolls batteries for starting small and mid size diesels, and they have been doing it for a long time. Not saying it's a good or bad choice, just saying they do it.

My background: over 29 years of active duty Coast Guard service.

[Sunking]

Chris here is where I am coming from. I am a huge fan of Rolls when it comes to their 4000 and 5000 series batteries used in RE applications. Even learning to like the 4500 series. RE applications are completely different than Traction and Starting. They completely different jobs to do. When it comes to Traction and Starting applications internal resistance is the name of the game and most important characteristics. I understand Rolls markets the 5000 series for Locomotive and Marine starting applications. But fact is they are not best batteries for that application. There are other manufactures out there with a better product and even better warranties.

Have you looked at Exide's GNB Element or KDZ lineup?

[ChrisOlson]

The reason they do not sale a lot of 5000 series for solar is pricing. However Rolls makes a total of 14 batteries in the 5000 series family. Every one of them is listed in the RE line up. In Rolls Flooded RE family are the 4000, 5000, and now a new line up 4500. The difference between each series is plate thickness with the 5000 series having the heaviest thickest plates.

Sunking - only some of them. Like the 8V locomotive starting batteries for 64V EMD locomotives are 5000-series and they have thinner plates, IIRC, than even the 4000-series floor scrubber types. The main difference between the 4000 and 5000 series is that 5000-series have replaceable cells and are dual container so they are spill proof in high vibration applications like marine. If you get a single bad cell in a 4000-series the whole battery has to be replaced. In a 5000-series you can replace the defective cell, just like any other traction battery. And I really like the Surrette 12-CS-11P over like a Crown or GB Industrial forklift battery because they have bolted interconnects. If you've ever had one apart, they are pretty cool. The interconnects are like the standard lug or "flag" post, but they meet the post on the adjacent cell and they are bolted together with stainless steel bolts. Most forklift batteries have soldered interconnects, however some companies like GB offers bolted interconnects too.

In marine, in smaller cabin cruisers with like gas Volvo-Penta propulsion, they will use smaller starting batteries and have a separate house bank. These boats are usually not considered "live aboard" so they don't spend big money on batteries in them. They use cheaper 4D and 8D sizes for house power and usually (these days) AGM marine cranking batteries for starting. These boats are 12V systems.

In larger yachts, the battery banks make most off-grid RE system banks look like a toy. In medium size boats up to 60 feet 24V is most common. Larger yachts use 8V batteries @ 32V system. Our yacht is 58 feet, 106,000 lb hull displacement. It has two 24V battery banks @ 750ah each. If we don't rent a slip at a marina so we anchor in the bay and use the skiff to run to shore, rather than running the onboard generator, we run off one house bank with the inverter. The other bank is "reserved" for propulsion engine starting. However, if you're anchored someplace for two weeks you may end up using both banks for house power. If the banks are down to 50%, then we parallel them with the selector for starting the Cats. The selector directs bank power to engine #1 or #2 and you have to start one engine, then flip the selector to the other engine and start that one.

The propulsion engines have 135A 24V alternators that each charge one bank. And we can also charge the banks with shore power, or with the onboard generator thru the inverter/charger, one at a time.

The reason the 12-CS-11P is so popular for yachts is because hardly anybody else, except for Deka, builds batteries that are suited for it. Some people have tried the cheaper 4D and 8D marine batteries in yachts and they're lucky to get 2-3 years out of them. Invariably a cell goes bad in one battery, they don't catch it right away, and they wipe out a whole bank with those cheap ones because of one bad cell. Then one day the bank goes dead, so they figure something must be wrong. Go down in the engine room and here the whole bank is boiled dry. So then they go, "WTF? Those batteries are only 3 years old." Well, DUH! Most people that own yachts might be able to make big deals on Wall Street, but otherwise they don't know which end of the wrench to hold, much less properly maintain their house banks. Marinas make BIG money on yacht batteries. And you can go to Georgetown, Grand Caymen, and guess what kind of batteries they got in stock at the marina? Surrette. They absolutely LOVE it when somebody comes in with a dead bank of 8D's.
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Chris