counterfeit hardware

[Mike90250]

Dam counterfeit hardware. Broken mount bolt on the generator. This set lasted about 25 hours Genuine Grade5 gives me over 500 hours before they fatigue and get replaced. Back to Ace for more junk parts from china. And then I place a $10 order to mcmaster-carr for real parts and get to pay $20 shipping for 10 years worth of spares.
And that's why off-grid living requires 2 generators, having one would mean the lamb and pork in the freezer goes bad.
ungraded = soft and squishy metal
grade 5 = tougher
grade 8 = really tough and brittle

http://www.choice-distribution.com/BoltsCanKill.aspx

[SunEagle]

I agree with you that there seems to be more and more of the stuff we rely on being counterfeit.

There was an issue with Square D circuit breakers a while back that were not made by SQ D but sure looked like they were. Those CB's were not of the same quality as the original and had failed under normal usage. The only way to determine which was which required a very close inspection of the nomenclature printed on the body of the breaker.

[bcroe]

Dam counterfeit hardware. Broken mount bolt on the generator. This set lasted about 25 hours Genuine Grade5 gives me over 500 hours before they fatigue and get replaced. Back to Ace for more junk parts from china. And then I place a $10 order to mcmaster-carr for real parts and get to pay $20 shipping for 10 years worth of spares.

Yea a pain. I get most hardware from M-C, close enough it comes next day. There are lists of stuff I could use
from many suppliers on my computer; the order goes out when I have to have it. I decided to stop worrying so
much about shipping costs any more.

Any chance you could up the diameter? Bruce Roe

[Mike90250]

Any chance you could up the diameter?

Naw, Did that once already, up against the web of the I beam with the washers. Today, the hardware store had "grade 5" bolts and nuts, and only grade 8 washers !!

[J.P.M.]

Back in the day, ~ mid '80's or so, counterfeit bolting materials started creeping into the U.S. pressure vessel industry. It was a real big problem for a while and never really went away. Drove Q.C. depts. in shops all over the U.S. and Europe nuts for a while.

All the materials, including bolting for ASME designed & stamped pressure vessels requires material and testing certification(s) traceable to the actual hardware. Often and commonly, the counterfeiting went as far as fake certs. I believe the initial reason the problem was discovered was when some fake bolting was discovered going on to an ASME Sec.III (for nuclear service) pressure vessel with everyone throughout the pressure vessel industry going instantly, appropriately and big time bat guano.

Short of retesting material lots, or trusting your supplier, there is no guaranteed way to ensure what you're getting.

FWIW, SA-307 bolting with SA -563 nuts for non pressure containing joints as for mounting equipment was a common standard. SA-193, B7 and SA-194, gr 2H nuts was common bolting for C. stl. pressure retaining joints like piping flanges.

I doubt you have any ASME pressure vessel shops anywhere near you, and it's a bit unusual, but if you contact one and get bolting from them, you'd probably have a better shot at the genuine article(s).

One other comment not meant as a knock: Failed bolting used for mounting vibrating equipment like pumps, motors, etc. is not something that we worried a lot about aside from corrosion failures. How are the failures occurring ? From my experience, and FWIW only, fastener problems with equipment mounting of rotating or cyclic equipment could often be traced to proper (or improper) foundation design bolt torqueing. The way I learned it, if a properly designed joint does not fail during tightening, aside from corrosion or act of God, it'll never fail.

[inetdog]

Just put together a piece of furniture today. Machine screws with round head and hex socket molded in.
Two out of the ten screws the hex key split the head into multiple pieces while barely more than finger tight.

[bcroe]

Just put together a piece of furniture today. Machine screws with round head and hex socket molded in.
Two out of the ten screws the hex key split the head into multiple pieces while barely more than finger tight.

The Asians seem to be especially bad about fasteners. I have gotten along with some of their stuff AFTER
these were replaced, which includes this weeks projects. Yes, used better from McM-C Bruce Roe

[Mike90250]

This is depicted in the following 2 photos
First, close up of the (replaced) failed bolt. It's another counterfeit, because that's all they stock in town. Been in service about 12 hours, and just stretched till it broke. Dont know how the threads didn't let loose, Try finding the square taper nuts for tapered I beam in a small town !
2nd shows overall view, Main engine bolts are 3/4" and good. (Black circle) The intermediate frame bolting (several red circles) is the counterfeit (7/16) is all that fits in the frame members, larger hole will weaken the frame. I run engine for 3 minutes, then re-torque.
The 8 large 3/4" x 12" all-thread epoxied into the 12" slab, holds the whole thing down to the ground.
(the 12V battery is for the little yellow backup genset in the doorway,)
Green engine is 6hp 650 rpm antique diesel, no electric components. (no glow plug, just high compression and 400lbs of flywheels) The hard part is to remember to use 10 wt oil so I can get it up to starting speed at 15F in the winter. The single 1800cc cyl really hammers everything when it fires, and the bolts have to be tough, and not too brittle. Grade 5 is too brittle, but the Grade 3, is unobtainable, and ungraded junk from the hardware store worse.
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[Bala]

P1120542.jpg I was also going to suggest that there must be a mounting issue to cause bolt failures and your photos show that.

you need some vibration / isolation mounts.

My lister TS2 and generator is on its frame and then that frame is mounted on 4 rubber mounts as per the pic.

Looks like you would add mounts between the frame and floor??

Your small diesel needs to have a similar set up.

[bcroe]

It appears the lower part is an I beam, could you add second bolt on the other side? Make a dual hole slanted
washer by grinding some flat stock.

If that intermediate part was an I beam, or had a bracket well bolted inside, you could add
up to 4 bolts. Bruce Roe

[Mike90250]

P1120542.jpg I was also going to suggest that there must be a mounting issue to cause bolt failures and your photos show that.

you need some vibration / isolation mounts.......

Actually the 6/1 is only supposed to be hard bolted to a engineered +2000lb concrete block, Any motion allowed with flex mounts results in something breaking, the mounting foot on the casting, the mounts, bolts, when inertia builds, the oscillating giant piston wins. Flex mounts have been tried, and all failed in spectacular manners. And too "good" of bolts will ruin things too. http://utterpower.com/engineer.htm
post about constructing the concrete block

[Bala]

Some research does show me that the single listeroids can be a beast of thing to hold down so I stand corrected there.

I also found on the utter power site where he mentions putting some form of rubber mounting in. It looks like you have some timber under it to try and dampen things/

I also read where some people are getting them balanced at a machine shop, I would think some ran a lot smoother from the factory than others.

there was also talk of using tyres to form a bed, not sure of success.

I think there are some things you could do to spread the load on those 4 bolts if your interested in ideas, but no 5 minute fixes.

[bcroe]

That is a beautiful engine, but balancing isn't going to keep the kick from combustion from appearing on the
engine mounts. Seems to me at one point they tend to be very strong and concentrate, which breaks bolts.
My intuition says beef up that area with more metal and either a much bigger bolt or increase the number of bolts.

I'd be inclined to weld on bigger/additional brackets, or multiple bolt them on. Bruce Roe

[inetdog]

Some research does show me that the single listeroids can be a beast of thing to hold down so I stand corrected there.

If my intuitive analysis is correct the loads on the feet do not come from the explosion itself. That does not result in any net force in any direction on the whole machine as long as the piston stays attached to the crankshaft. But the torque that the piston delivers to the crankshaft and the humungous flywheel has to be balanced by torque between the footings that transfers to the concrete block and eventually gets satisfied by gravity.

[Mike90250]

2 heavy boxes of hardware from McMasterCarr arrived today, I'll sort it out tomorrow and see if I can get any installed before any more breakage, The original install with good 3/8 hardware was fine for 3 years, and yes, I see that 3/8 was undersized but the backyard welder and hole driller (several spots of swiss cheese holes on the I beams from not measuring well) has left me stuck with what I have.