Is solar green?

[SunEagle]

I'm not defining the word "green", Merriam-Webster is.

You're making an assumption that I'm on an environmental crusade - and I assure you, that isn't the case. I take airline travel often, eat beef, and modified my TDI's exhaust so that it is no longer a "clean diesel" (which by the way is questionable if it ever was) and like a lot of people, have made the choice to live in a house that is connected to a coal-fired power grid. I've also made the choice to install solar, drive an EV as my primary vehicle, planted ~200 trees & shrubs in our yard, grow some of our own food, compost, have rain barrels, recycle when possible, etc.

I've never stated (or actually believe) that solar is the answer to "all of [the world's] pollution and power requirements". It has only offset some of my own pollution and power requirements.

All very admirable actions on your part. I thank you for providing this information and agree with a lot of what you are doing.

Sometimes I find it hard to determine where someone is positioning themselves. There are way too many people that have been brainwashed into believing solar is the answer to all power generation. I am sorry if I lumped you into that category.

[jflorey2]

Read the definition again.
Solar panels are green by definition because they tend to preserve environmental quality as by being nonpolluting. It really is that simple.

Dude, I am agreeing with you.

[DanKegel]

I think SunEagle is fighting a strawman. I don't know many people who think "solar is the answer to all of our pollution and power requirements".

[oilerlord]

I will say that solar is a very clean way to generate electrical power and along with other RE is a good direction to add to our portfolio of power generation in this country.

IMO what "is simple" is your ability to accept and be brain washed into believing that solar is the answer to all of our pollution and power requirements. Neither is true no matter how you define the word "Green".

I'm not defining the word "green", Merriam-Webster is.

You're making an assumption that I'm on an environmental crusade - and I assure you, that isn't the case. I take airline travel often, eat beef, and modified my TDI's exhaust so that it is no longer a "clean diesel" (which by the way is questionable if it ever was) and like a lot of people, have made the choice to live in a house that is connected to a coal-fired power grid. I've also made the choice to install solar, drive an EV as my primary vehicle, planted ~200 trees & shrubs in our yard, grow some of our own food, compost, have rain barrels, recycle when possible, etc.

I've never stated (or actually believe) that solar is the answer to "all of [the world's] pollution and power requirements". It has only offset some of my own pollution and power requirements.

[SunEagle]

Read the definition again.

Solar panels are green by definition because they tend to preserve environmental quality as by being nonpolluting. It really is that simple.

I will say that solar is a very clean way to generate electrical power and along with other RE is a good direction to add to our portfolio of power generation in this country.

IMO what "is simple" is your ability to accept and be brain washed into believing that solar is the answer to all of our pollution and power requirements. Neither is true no matter how you define the word "Green".

[oilerlord]

They, overall, tend to reduce pollution - which is why they are more green than, say, coal power. Again, nothing - not even a tree - is completely green by the above definition.

Read the definition again.

Solar panels are green by definition because they tend to preserve environmental quality as by being nonpolluting. It really is that simple.

[jflorey2]

But the manufacturing of solar panels does contribute to a number of types of pollution, are not biodegradable, or totally recyclable, therefore solar does not meet the part of the definition.

They, overall, tend to reduce pollution - which is why they are more green than, say, coal power.

Again, nothing - not even a tree - is completely green by the above definition. (Google what causes the "smoke" in the Smoky Mountains.)

[oilerlord]

But the manufacturing of solar panels does contribute to a number of types of pollution, are not biodegradable, or totally recyclable, therefore solar does not meet the part of the definition.

Since we're picking nits...read the definition again. The keyword is "or", not "and". Biodegradable, recyclable, or nonpolluting. As solar panels tend to preserve environmental quality as by being nonpolluting, by definition, they are green.

[J.P.M.]

Yeah I know. Lived in a tin can when I was a kid.

That was the place my folks aspired to when I was a kid. Times change huh ?

[Sunking]

Trailer parks are a good place to be from. Fewer illusions there.

Yeah I know. Lived in a tin can when I was a kid.

[SunEagle]

Nope. Solar is green. The statement is accurate.

Green as defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Tending to preserve environmental quality (as by being recyclable, biodegradable, or nonpolluting)

But the manufacturing of solar panels does contribute to a number of types of pollution, are not biodegradable, or totally recyclable, therefore solar does not meet the part of the definition.

[J.P.M.]

Trailer park trash or a Hermit.

Trailer parks are a good place to be from. Fewer illusions there.

[Sunking]

That's probably close to the lowest entropy increase I could inflict on the universe and exist - at least for awhile - and I'd still impact my surrounding. I do not choose to live that way..

Trailer park trash or a Hermit.

[J.P.M.]

Well, production of solar-PV requires a lot of dopants that are pretty nasty, and there's a lot of waste produced during the process. In addition, the frames and glass take a tremendous amount of energy. So the more accurate statement would be that solar is greenER than some other forms of power (like fossil.)

That's true of all forms of power. None are truly benign. Some, though, are much worse than others.

+1. In one philosophical way of looking at it, it comes down to a matter of degrees, lifestyle choices and how far you want to chase things.

I suppose I could be a vegetarian, live off the land, without clothing or shelter, recycle my poop into the soil and do all that without tools. That's probably close to the lowest entropy increase I could inflict on the universe and exist - at least for awhile - and I'd still impact my surrounding. I do not choose to live that way.

So, it comes down to how much do I want to increase the disorder of the universe to decrease the disorder in my life (or, in the common notion, make my life "better").

A farmer living off the land in the 19th century mid west of the U.S. was probably closer to what I describe, but still not at a theoretical, and also impossible minimum.

Solar panels have nasty stuff in them for sure, but I've noticed such statements often degenerate into finger points about all forms of energy production being "bad" - and perhaps all or most such statements, because of entropy, more/less correct but with varying degrees of accuracy.

Bottom line: There ain't no free lunch when it comes to impacting the environment. How much, and in what ways human activity changes things and thereby increasing the general rate of entropy increase by making life "better" cannot be avoided any more than the 2d law o thermodynamics can be violated. The best we can hope for is to slow the rate of entropy increase.

One way to perhaps view the debate between pro nuke/conventional proponents and pro R.E. folks, aside from the silliness of the often all/nothing nonsense, is the difference in how each side views the best ways to limit or reduce the entropy increase, or if such a thing is a concern at all.

The polarization that seems to be increasing just now isn't helping communication between sides.

[oilerlord]

Nope. Solar is green. The statement is accurate.

Green as defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Tending to preserve environmental quality (as by being recyclable, biodegradable, or nonpolluting)