Is solar green?

[Sunking]

Yes, there is that paper by the guy who likes nuclear power that says differently, but he's smoking crack; he says nuclear power plants last three times longer than solar panels.

And how is that not a true statement?

[DanKegel]

You are almost correct. When you hit your ROI point of a solar pv system you then start to save more money then you spent. But if you figured in all of the carbon released to manufacture your pv system and install it your carbon footprint will not go to zero until years after your system pays for itself.

Last I checked, the energy payback time -- and the carbon payback time -- were both under four years.

Yes, there is that paper by the guy who likes nuclear power that says differently, but he's smoking crack; he says nuclear power plants last three times longer than solar panels.

[SunEagle]

Based on my crappy research the best I can tell your carbon footprint remains level until about the time you break even on the cost of install. After that your footprint goes to zero as well as your electricity costs. As for batteries, I've not researched that, but I would imagine you would never get to even unless you had a battery that could provide all your needs for more that 15 years.

You are almost correct. When you hit your ROI point of a solar pv system you then start to save more money then you spent. But if you figured in all of the carbon released to manufacture your pv system and install it your carbon footprint will not go to zero until years after your system pays for itself.

Now maybe someone will invent a new carbon free energy storage system that lasts more than 15 years. But as of today there isn't any battery chemistry that is carbon free or worse toxic waste free. I am more concerned about all them batteries people will throw away then the amount of C02 in the air.

[easye]

Based on my crappy research the best I can tell your carbon footprint remains level until about the time you break even on the cost of install. After that your footprint goes to zero as well as your electricity costs. As for batteries, I've not researched that, but I would imagine you would never get to even unless you had a battery that could provide all your needs for more that 15 years.

[SunEagle]

And the brush fires, and the cost of housing, and the urban pseudopods that LA keeps extending in every direction . . .

If I was younger and had interest in snowboarding or surfing I would be jealous. But except for a few good things I can think of (like those breweries) I really wouldn't want to live in CA.

[jflorey2]

Sounds like a great play land.
Now all you have to worry about is lack of rain or them pesky earthquakes.

And the brush fires, and the cost of housing, and the urban pseudopods that LA keeps extending in every direction . . .

[SunEagle]

I can go snowboarding in the morning, go surfing in the afternoon and then hit the best breweries in the world at night. Top that! (AND still pay $15 a month for all the power I need.)

Sounds like a great play land.

Now all you have to worry about is lack of rain or them pesky earthquakes.

[jflorey2]

Whoopee. I pay 7-cents for all I want any time of day. If I use more than 2500 Kwh in a month the price goes down. I pay no income taxes. Top that.

I can go snowboarding in the morning, go surfing in the afternoon and then hit the best breweries in the world at night. Top that! (AND still pay $15 a month for all the power I need.)

[Sunking]

I generate more power than I use and pay an average of about $15 a month to use the utility as a big battery. Charge my EV with it too, so I don't have to pay this week's gas prices. If that makes me a SLAVE then I am glad to be one; I enjoy the freedom.

Whoopee. I pay 7-cents for all I want any time of day. If I use more than 2500 Kwh in a month the price goes down. I pay no income taxes. Top that.

[DanKegel]

That paper reads like an ad for the nuclear power industry. He assumes lifetime of solar panels is 25 years, but the lifetime of a nuclear plant is 60 years... weren't most current plants designed for 40 years?

http://www.solarbankability.org/file...V_projects.pdf quotes a study that gives the MTBF for solar panels in utility-scale installations of 6666 years (!); inverters, not panels, were the cause of most failures. Presumably as time goes on we'll get better at making reliable inverters.

I'll have to read it more carefully, but for the moment, it doesn't seem very credible.

[SunEagle]

https://collapseofindustrialciviliza...-for-photo.pdf

Well that is surprising. While I always have indicated that using RE for 100% of our power source could never be able to replace all types of fossil & nuclear fuel generated power worldwide, I am still surprised of the energy losses calculated in that paper when you considered a soup to nuts approach. That makes me sad.

[Wy_White_Wolf]

https://collapseofindustrialcivilization.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/ferroni-y-hopkirk-2016-energy-return-on-energy-invested-eroei-for-photo.pdf

[DanKegel]

Iirc they did consider flaring it, but decided it was too dangerous.

The field still has some gas in it, they left enough to get through the winter, even with it degraded.

[jflorey2]

That storage reservoir is useless now, after leaking for months, raw greenhouse gas leaking into the air, Would have been better to have lit it and burned it to Co2, which can be recycled.

One of the problems was that the utility really didn't want anyone to know how bad the leak was. Until a third party took an IR picture of the leak showing the plume, there wasn't a lot of public pressure to get it fixed. Thus I have a feeling that flaring the leak would have been out of the question for them. (Well, that and the fact that it was a few blocks from a suburb . . . .)

[DanKegel]

http://www.energy.ca.gov/2016_energy...eles_Basin.pdf has a lot of details about the possibility of blackouts and the plan to avoid them.

As for California going bankrupt - Gov Brown has run a tight financial ship. He's more fiscally responsible than the national GOP.