Taking new meat to school

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  • 3 boys farm
    Junior Member
    • Jul 2011
    • 5

    #1

    Taking new meat to school

    Ok, so here is my first post, and from reading this thread, you guys love to cannibalize new meat, and I am cool with that, as its about dues and respect. I do however have to say that Sunking's comment " I see a fire and explosion in your near future" almost made me require a diaper, it only serves as further proof the need for this thread, as sellers are preying on, and eating off cash lined cadavers . I digress.

    I have put up on our blog images of the array, nearing completion. We are a sustainable farm that as you will see practices/walks the line.


    For the few that may question the design, it is true north-south with maximum E-W exposure. It is phase 1 of 5 sections I will install, each section will be self independent, isolated and off grid. In part my design was to capture most of our photo day, and limit the exposure of the array to Daryl, Daryl, and Julio, our local gang of bad boys.

    Briefly, we are in west central Florida, hurricane central, so everything is overkill built, and low on maintenance. Our primary grid is old, and when its down we are out of power for days to a week, not good for a hydroponic operation. We harvest rain, wind, exhaust, and now sun.

    Since I got beat out twice on sustainable energy grants, where I was slated to be funded (politics and the good old boys) approved a farm in the middle of a city for 1MW of solar, when they have 3 cows. So I had to fund this alone and I looked at value and efficiency.

    ----------------the BUY--------------------------------------
    I purchased 2 pallets of Dupont DA080-A2, B grades for under a buck a watt. Panels are blemish fee, but it was an assortment of older/same panel with different MP connectors and 1/2 were black underside the rest white. (look to the panels for harmony) . I went for amorphous cells due to geographic location, other more expensive cells used at local utilities and homes all have issues with heat gain, power loss here in summer.
    ----------------the WHY-------------------------------------
    OK guys, pay attention here, as this is where I drop my shorts for the big attack.
    We wired in Parallel each string of 8 @ 80 watts. There are 6 strings. (if we get the max power +,it's possible to be 704w each string)
    I purchased a Xantrex XW-MMPT60-150 controller as logically in my mind, it was all I needed.

    Balls out max 4224 array watts, over 71 max volts = 59.49 amps, (right???) so then I assumed each string of max output was in the area of 9 amps so, I ordered the 6 string combiner box, I may have screwed up on the fuse sizing, as I went 15A, as the load seemed to close for a 10A, Thoughts???
    -----------------the SIGH-------------------------------------
    So after you either piss yourself in laughter or send the fire trucks, help my review , ask questions, as I know the comments will be forthcoming, and when you feel compassion, please advise on battery efficiency and sizes, recommendations for best value.
    Your new punching bag,
    Robert
  • Sunking
    Solar Fanatic
    • Feb 2010
    • 23301

    #2
    Originally posted by 3 boys farm
    I do however have to say that Sunking's comment " I see a fire and explosion in your near future" almost made me require a diaper,
    My bark is worse than my bite. It is just my cynical sense of humor to get your attention.

    Originally posted by 3 boys farm
    We wired in Parallel each string of 8 @ 80 watts. There are 6 strings. (if we get the max power +,it's possible to be 704w each string)
    I purchased a Xantrex XW-MMPT60-150 controller as logically in my mind, it was all I needed.

    Balls out max 4224 array watts, over 71 max volts = 59.49 amps, (right???) so then I assumed each string of max output was in the area of 9 amps so, I ordered the 6 string combiner box, I may have screwed up on the fuse sizing, as I went 15A, as the load seemed to close for a 10A, Thoughts???
    OK you lost me here and there may be a problem. They are either in parallel or they are not. A STRING indicates you have panels wired in series to make a STRING. For example we wired 3 panels in series to make a STRING, and wired 8 Strings in PARALLEL. Also could be stated as 3 x 8 configuration for 24 panels totaled. You need to describe it better so this idiot understands.

    Here is where I see a problem with a 60 amp controller you are limited to max wattage input vs BATTERY voltage:

    720 watts @ 12 volts
    1440 watts @ 24 volts
    2880 watts @ 48 volts.

    You have 4200? That would take 2-60 amp controllers to handle that much panel wattage. So one of us needs straightened out because if I understand you have 4400 watts on a 60 amp controller with unknown battery voltage. I see a fire and explosion in your future

    No sir not with a MPPT controller with 4200 watt input and 48 volt battery = 4200 / 48 = 87.5 amps.
    MSEE, PE

    Comment

    • 3 boys farm
      Junior Member
      • Jul 2011
      • 5

      #3
      attempt at clarification

      Sunking, the panel tag indicates 80W+10% // Vpm @71V //Lpm @ 1.27A

      Sun electric in Miami sold them to me with the 60 amp controller. I was told by them to wire my groups of panels (that I mistook for a string) all positives, all negatives together as it would keep the voltage the same just increase the amps, this is were my addition is based on. (so before I blame the sales rep) for my bust, all that has been done to date is mounting 48 panels, and grouping each set of 8 panels together, all + on one 10G wire, all - to another 10G wire, run to future box mounting points 12-15'. No boxes or anything else is up at moment.

      So to avoid the fire and explosion, and I can get another controller, how would you see these panels wired to the controller, and how would these be properly wired, as it was my understanding a series hookup was + to -, and increased V, not amps.
      Please advise, as you an imagine 90% of what is out there is to either sell you something unnecessary, or burn down the house. Many thanks in advance, and I like sick humor, it works.
      R

      Comment

      • Sunking
        Solar Fanatic
        • Feb 2010
        • 23301

        #4
        OK Robert we are on the same page now, except for one more piece of info. What battery voltage? Other than that we are on the same page. Ok with the panels you have, they can only be configured in parallel because of the rather high voltage nature of them.

        Ok you do have a significant problem, how significant depends on what Battery Voltage you are running. I do not like the Xantrex Charge Controller products because they use such screwy specifications on panel wattage's and do not specify how to configure for maximum performance (power harvest and efficiency)

        If you look at the owners manual, Installation, PV Array Requirements, page 2-2 it tells you can a panel wattage up to 6720 watts based on 140 Vdc 48 Amp input from the panels, but can only harvest a maximum of 3500 watts based on 60 volt battery @ 60 Amps output to the battery. I hope you caught what I just said, Input 6720 watts and only get 3500 watts output. I hope that raise a RED FLAG and ALARM BELLS in your head because it should. If you were to do that you waste 3220 watts or only 52%.

        MPPT controllers are rated by their output current. For yours that is 60 amps. So the correct way to specify panel array wattage is to reference it on nominal BATTERY Voltage. So if you had a 12 volt battery, the maximum panel wattage is 720 watts. Anything above that will not be used. So what Xantrex should have satetd is maximum panel wattage vs battery voltage is:

        720 watts @ 12 volts
        1440 watts @ 24 volts
        2160 watts @ 36 volts
        2880 watts @ 48 volts
        3600 watts @ 60 volts

        Now ask yourself; What battery voltage am I running? How much panel wattage am I able to use? Right now you have more panel wattage than a 60 volt battery can use. So if you answer; I am running 24 volts, then you are not 2400 watts of my 3840 watt panel array. Do you have a problem with that? If you are running anything other than 60 volt battery you might as well throw half or more of your panels away because they are not doing anything.
        MSEE, PE

        Comment

        • 3 boys farm
          Junior Member
          • Jul 2011
          • 5

          #5
          Wake Up Call

          Sunking, Thank you, X10. I am now 100% on the same page, and see were this went wrong. While I have more power than the Xantrex can handle, I have several options,
          1. Go Elvis, and pull out the Desert Eagle and go noodles on the array, bad idea...
          2. Get a better suited Controller that will be better mated to the power output. (yes)
          3. Since no batteries have been considered yet, take some advise from you and select
          accordingly.
          4. My intention is to tune this to get maximum output, and I am clearly lacking the
          tools for the job. SO respectfully based on the known information, what controller
          would you use, why? and what battery voltage to pair with it.

          I did see that you can link multiple XW-MMPT60-150, together, but this seems absurd as the controller is not best suited for the system. I will find a place for that unit elsewhere down the line. So its selection time for a new controller, and size and select batteries. Your ball, good sir. R

          Comment

          • Sunking
            Solar Fanatic
            • Feb 2010
            • 23301

            #6
            Robert I hate to answer because I have no idea how much power you need in a day and what it will be used for. With that said just based on your location and panel wattage (3840 watts) here is a WAG reversed engineered.

            1 Outback FlexMax 80 Amp MPPT Charge Controller.
            12 Rolls/Surrette 4KS 25P 4 volt 1350 AH Batteries configured @ 48 Volts
            1 4000 to 7000 watt True Sign Wave Inverter
            15 KVA Single Phase 240/120 Generator with 250 gallon LPG tank
            240 VAC Rectifier rated at 48 volts @ 150 amps (battery charger)


            The above will supply you with 13 Kwh per day in Orlando Florida area with best production in April and May peaking at 15 Kwh per day
            MSEE, PE

            Comment

            • 3 boys farm
              Junior Member
              • Jul 2011
              • 5

              #7
              Seeing the light

              Thank you for the reply and advise, and I do understand it is all subjective to loads and use. My primary use for this array is for back up soar pump(s) running 3 greenhouses in event of total power loss, and LP fuel not being able to be delivered.
              I have recently purchased a Cummings Onan 60 KW lp fueled backup generator. Since I do have both single and 3 ph. equipment to back up we have run 3 ph. into a high leg delta Siemens 200A panel were we can get 1 & 3 ph 240V power were necessary.

              I ran a 2" line with #1 wire to the array(150' away) for battery charging if/as needed.
              I like your thinking, and the way to have this as a stand alone power station.
              The only item that is not in the cash flow equation this month are the batteries suggested, they are brilliant and long term a sound investment.

              With your permission, I will select the solar pumps that will supply the water flow needed and forward the details next week.

              What you have done is made me see this from a better more professional prospective. This is one of the few if only areas on this project i have been flying blind. A big thanks to you, and to those who moderate the site, much appreciated.
              R

              Comment

              • Sunking
                Solar Fanatic
                • Feb 2010
                • 23301

                #8
                Originally posted by 3 boys farm
                The only item that is not in the cash flow equation this month are the batteries suggested, they are brilliant and long term a sound investment.
                Robert you do understand without the batteries none of this is going to work?

                With the generator you can cut back about 30% on the batteries. Just make sure you have a large enough LP tank to run the operation at least a week in the event of a Hurricane. Well heck if you take a direct hit from a hurricane there will not be any solar, batteries, or generator.
                MSEE, PE

                Comment

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