Sizing Off-Grid Systems And Using Gen Support

[inetdog]

The is no legal way to convert an standard off grid inverter to work as a grid tie. There are Hybrid systems the allow you to connect to the grid as well as charge a battery system but that equipment is manufactured and UL listed. Making your own equipment to connect to the grid would never be accepted by the POCO or your local code team.

Not only is there no legal way, there is no practical way. The inverter circuitry is not designed to be controlled in voltage and phase by an external input, does not have any way to prevent it from running in island mode in the case of a grid failure and if it matters to you it does not have MPPT to allow it to run directly from a panel array.

[Pooba]

Sake of being way over my head on this subject

A generator assisted system is more than likely going to be my only option. Since my power requirements are way too high. Cutting to the chase as I put it. What equipment would you need to create this type of system? I need to run at least one 48 volt DC mini split 12000 btu air conditioner http://www.hotspotenergy.com/DC-air-conditioner/ along with the rest of my power requirements for a total of 837 kWh. I know it is a pipe dream financially to create a solar system and battery bank to handle this entire load. I would like it to handle around half. Or at least be able to run the air conditioner on solar during the day and let the generator carry the load at night and let it charge the battery bank if the panels cannot during the day for whatever reason. Without air conditioner my power figure is around 254 kWh. The air conditioner would only be used during the summer months.

Before anyone brings up why not just run on grid power. That will never happen since the closests power is over 7 miles away and the COOP out here charges $ 42000 a mile. $294000 for grid power leaves some room for solar system instead. LOL So it is either create a system to handle some of the load via solar or run on generators 24 hours a day in summer. Which I would like to avoid. My ranch is located in west Texas and I believe my sun figure is 5 hours a day. I have been at this 600 acre location for over 12 years now. Have already went to the expense of building cabins and drilling a $35000 1000 ft deep water well. Which runs on a larger generator already to fill a 2000 gal concrete cistern tank.

Any and all the help of proper equipment and sizing would be greatly appreciated. I have been reading for posts, websites and articles for two weeks and my head is going to EXPLODE or my wife is going to shoot me. Whichever comes first. Good information and proper equipment is worth trading for hunting on my place. LOL Not a pay ranch for hunting but you can see what i have on my personal website. www.singlestackranch.com I promise not selling anything. If this post is in the wrong place in forums please excuse a newbie mess up. Thank you.

[Bala]

A generator assisted system is more than likely going to be my only option. Since my power requirements are way too high. Cutting to the chase as I put it. What equipment would you need to create this type of system? I need to run at least one 48 volt DC mini split 12000 btu air conditioner http://www.hotspotenergy.com/DC-air-conditioner/ along with the rest of my power requirements for a total of 837 kWh. I know it is a pipe dream financially to create a solar system and battery bank to handle this entire load. I would like it to handle around half. Or at least be able to run the air conditioner on solar during the day and let the generator carry the load at night and let it charge the battery bank if the panels cannot during the day for whatever reason. Without air conditioner my power figure is around 254 kWh. The air conditioner would only be used during the summer months.

Before anyone brings up why not just run on grid power. That will never happen since the closests power is over 7 miles away and the COOP out here charges $ 42000 a mile. $294000 for grid power leaves some room for solar system instead. LOL So it is either create a system to handle some of the load via solar or run on generators 24 hours a day in summer. Which I would like to avoid. My ranch is located in west Texas and I believe my sun figure is 5 hours a day. I have been at this 600 acre location for over 12 years now. Have already went to the expense of building cabins and drilling a $35000 1000 ft deep water well. Which runs on a larger generator already to fill a 2000 gal concrete cistern tank.

Any and all the help of proper equipment and sizing would be greatly appreciated. I have been reading for posts, websites and articles for two weeks and my head is going to EXPLODE or my wife is going to shoot me. Whichever comes first. Good information and proper equipment is worth trading for hunting on my place. LOL Not a pay ranch for hunting but you can see what i have on my personal website. www.singlestackranch.com I promise not selling anything. If this post is in the wrong place in forums please excuse a newbie mess up. Thank you.

It may help you if you take this and start a new thread in the off grid section, and repost your comments from your intro thread that you know it is costly but that you are prepared for that

what is your expected daily need in KWH.

Try to ask specific questions, but you need to supply the right info to get the right answers.

It is not a simple task to get the best result for what you need.

[Sundetective]

No. We heat 100% with wood in a central forced air Daka furnace (made in Pine City, MN) that has a catalytic recombustor on it to burn the particulates in the wood smoke. We have a virtually endless wood supply here that will last us for over 1,500 years just doing select cutting of mature hardwoods on our own property. There is no way we can keep up cutting the mature trees for firewood to open up sunlight area for the new undergrowth before they die. I have probably 3 years worth of harvested logs that I haven't processed, but got out of the woods because if I don't they will start to rot and go bad. I sell processed firewood and chips to about 30 customers in the area and still can't keep up with the rate that hardwoods reach maturity and are ready for harvest on our land.

It is not worth it to mess with CHP when we have a fuel source like that.

We do not burn any propane at all, nor will my wife allow a propane line into the house. Years ago we had an explosion in a rented house we lived in that blew one wall and all the windows out and lifted the house off its foundation and shifted it about 2 feet. It was due to a valve on the water heater that malfunctioned and we lost most of our personal belongings from it. We had a propane genset for a couple years and my wife made me hide the tank for that behind a rock wall and bunch of pine trees where she couldn't see it. But it bothered her to no end that it was there. And the propane genset didn't work worth a crap anyway in cold weather so we got rid of it.

IMO, propane is one of the worst choices for off-grid fuel. You couldn't even buy the stuff around here this winter because all the suppliers ran out. And the last they had when they were rationing to people for fillups, they were selling for over $7/gallon. Plus there is no way in hell a LP truck can get in here. Our 500 gallon tank for the genset used to be mounted on a wagon running gear and I towed it 25 miles to where the truck could come and fill it up, then towed it home. The only upside to propane is its shelf-life. But it has so many downsides that it's not even worth considering unless you live in a tropical climate like Missouri. I can haul a 500 gallon tank of diesel fuel in here and it's got one hell of a lot more energy in that 500 gallons of diesel fuel than 500 gallons of propane has, for less than half the cost per BTU.

The only thing we use the waste heat from the gensets for is to heat the powerhouse in the winter. The powerhouse has thermostatically controlled ventilation that keeps it at 75F in there in the winter for the air-cooled engines so they don't run too cold. Never did get into using liquid-cooled genset because it takes too damn much time to warm them up properly before they can accept full rated load.

Chris,

Are your renewable energy projects located where you shoot
the YouTube videos about your farming and amateur radio set-ups
in Barron, WI, a couple of miles from downtown.

You mentioned in your 2/15/15 YouTube that you spend a lot of
time over the winter in your little radio station.
I assumes that is also where the marvelous weather station dat
you and Kristian operate is located.

Adding the GPS feature was nice so people can zoom in on you
and 'mentally' be a little part of the action.
It's wonderfuls.

Bill Blake

[SunEagle]

Chris,

Are your renewable energy projects located where you shoot
the YouTube videos about your farming and amateur radio set-ups
in Barron, WI, a couple of miles from downtown.

You mentioned in your 2/15/15 YouTube that you spend a lot of
time over the winter in your little radio station.
I assumes that is also where the marvelous weather station dat
you and Kristian operate is located.

Adding the GPS feature was nice so people can zoom in on you
and 'mentally' be a little part of the action.
It's wonderfuls.

Bill Blake

Bill

I believe Chris lives much farther North in Bayfield County close to the Lake.

He has not posted on this forum for a while so is probably very busy with other projects.

[Sundetective]

Bill

I believe Chris lives much farther North in Bayfield County close to the Lake.

He has not posted on this forum for a while so is probably very busy with other projects.

I can believe Chris is very busy - indeedie.
Over at the Fieldlines Forum some of his
3400 posts are in his thread called Ethanol Plant.
He grows so much corn that he shows pictures of his and hers matching
full blown tractor trailers (one for his wife) delivering 28 tons of corn each - at a clip.
Now THAT is growing some serious corn.
Old Bill ain't lyin.

Just assumed he was with the Chris and Kristin Olson Weather Station
KWIBARRO3 near downtown Barron, WI.

The GPS numbers match up with what is shown in the YouTube videos.
Perhaps they go north in the winter to do battle with the winter.

That may be where the 24 Rolls 4000 Series T12 250 batteries are located
in the 12 Long String that we discussed in one of my threads at Fieldlines.

Here he has Rolls 5000 but wants to dump them so there must be a second
Location.
Up North is where he is probably the Engineer like Sunking is as he writes
about here at SPT.
Unless he squeezes it in with the farming and the trucking
at Barron.

At YouTube (Chris Olson Olson Farms) and Fieldlines he is definitely a
Bigtime farmer.

Midnite Solar (Chris Olson Midnite Solar at Google) has Wind Turbine
Installation pictures at Barron, WI.

Chris must have moved the Turbine up North as well.
You can't blame an old detective for getting it all messed up.
There were other things as well.

Bill Blake

[SunEagle]

I can believe Chris is very busy - indeedie.
Over at the Fieldlines Forum some of his
3400 posts are in his thread called Ethanol Plant.
He grows so much corn that he shows pictures of his and hers matching
full blown tractor trailers (one for his wife) delivering 28 tons of corn each - at a clip.
Now THAT is growing some serious corn.
Old Bill ain't lyin.

Just assumed he was with the Chris and Kristin Olson Weather Station
KWIBARRO3 near downtown Barron, WI.

The GPS numbers match up with what is shown in the YouTube videos.
Perhaps they go north in the winter to do battle with the winter.

That may be where the 24 Rolls 4000 Series T12 250 batteries are located
in the 12 Long String that we discussed in one of my threads at Fieldlines.

Here he has Rolls 5000 but wants to dump them so there must be a second
Location.
Up North is where he is probably the Engineer like Sunking is as he writes
about here at SPT.
Unless he squeezes it in with the farming and the trucking
at Barron.

At YouTube (Chris Olson Olson Farms) and Fieldlines he is definitely a
Bigtime farmer.

Midnite Solar (Chris Olson Midnite Solar at Google) has Wind Turbine
Installation pictures at Barron, WI.

Chris must have moved the Turbine up North as well.
You can't blame an old detective for getting it all messed up.
There were other things as well.

Bill Blake

Sounds like you have done so searching for his location. The only other data I can add is concerning his yacht which he stated he kept at a marina in Bayfield and that being on the lake has help increase the output of his wind turbine. He also mentioned about his "scooter" day trip to Duluth so I figured he was in upper WI near the lake.

Of course he could have any number of places he calls home.

[Sundetective]

Sounds like you have done so searching for his location. The only other data I can add is concerning his yacht which he stated he kept at a marina in Bayfield and that being on the lake has help increase the output of his wind turbine. He also mentioned about his "scooter" day trip to Duluth so I figured he was in upper WI near the lake.

Of course he could have any number of places he calls home.

To be honest with you all I did was check how much wind was up there
for the fun of it after the Midnite Solar story about the Bergy Windmill
popped up in Barron.

Chris has his GPS Coordinates and the elevation on at the top of his
Weather Underground KWIBARRO3 page so its kind of hard to miss.

His whole story sounds facinating.
It a goodie.

Bill Blake

[Sundetective]

Sounds like you have done so searching for his location. The only other data I can add is concerning his yacht which he stated he kept at a marina in Bayfield and that being on the lake has help increase the output of his wind turbine. He also mentioned about his "scooter" day trip to Duluth so I figured he was in upper WI near the lake.

Of course he could have any number of places he calls home.

Actually the Yacht is Located in Puerto Rico now.

Remember there was 6 feet of snow on the solar panels
and the Wind Turbine was froze solid when he got back from
2 months of sailing dis winter.

Going to be hell on wheels mountain climbing 500 gallons
of fuel oil at a clip into dat place once Chris has that Cummins
Power Plant running 24 / 7 and throws the Rolls 5000 batteries out.
No more batteries at all. 25,000 Watt generator.
Thousands of gallons.
Give me a dollar
The man is the LeRoy of the whole bunch of you.

[SunEagle]

Actually the Yacht is Located in Puerto Rico now.

Remember there was 6 feet of snow on the solar panels
and the Wind Turbine was froze solid when he got back from
2 months of sailing dis winter.

Going to be hell on wheels mountain climbing 500 gallons
of fuel oil at a clip into dat place once Chris has that Cummins
Power Plant running 24 / 7 and throws the Rolls 5000 batteries out.
No more batteries at all. 25,000 Watt generator.
Thousands of gallons.
Give me a dollar
The man is the LeRoy of the whole bunch of you.

I figured he move his yacht out before the winter freeze. He certainly has built an impressive off grid system and has the fortitude to keep upgrading it.

Maybe he will drill for oil to run that Cummins.

[Sundetective]

I figured he move his yacht out before the winter freeze. He certainly has built an impressive off grid system and has the fortitude to keep upgrading it.

Maybe he will drill for oil to run that Cummins.

On top of all that in his most recent YouTube video Chris talks about
how much time he is spending on his radio station to boot-ie
dis winter. AC9KH radio. (See YouTube.)

One of the fanboy's liable to be flying him back and forth from PR.
Will a jet helicopter make it dat far.

Sunking, (his Junior Engineer) may know.

It may go forever if old Bill kept reading and cross checking -
But he won't.
Give me a dollar.

It was fun looking at the story just a tad.

Equipment is one thing.
The story is another.

Bill Blake

[armourereric]

I have been reading this thread over several times and am fascinated with the results. Would it be possible to get a "shopping list" of the specific components used? That way I can price out this system with real time cost.

[Sunking]

I have been reading this thread over several times and am fascinated with the results. Would it be possible to get a "shopping list" of the specific components used? That way I can price out this system with real time cost.

Sure I will do it for a fee. No one here is a Professional Engineer eexcept me who can legally help you. But I do not work for FREE.

[Riley5781]

This is an interesting first thread for me.
We are building a cabin on a lake that's off grid. I wish I had power but it's not in the plans for at least 5 years.
Chris - I like your thoughts on sizing and using the Gen Set for peaks. I hate buying batteries (consumables).

I skimmed the other pages but I now wonder about type of Gen set. Everybody where I am uses gas or propane and I was thinking propane but maybe not.

Thanks again and I hope to learn more at this site over the coming months.

Riley

[solar pete]

This is an interesting first thread for me.
We are building a cabin on a lake that's off grid. I wish I had power but it's not in the plans for at least 5 years.
Chris - I like your thoughts on sizing and using the Gen Set for peaks. I hate buying batteries (consumables).

I skimmed the other pages but I now wonder about type of Gen set. Everybody where I am uses gas or propane and I was thinking propane but maybe not.

Thanks again and I hope to learn more at this site over the coming months.

Riley

Hello Riley, welcome to the neighborhood.