The intelligent buyers guide to NiFe / Truly dry Rolls Surrette supplier.

[plataoplomo]

Professionally I use Enersys.

Pure Lead batteries has extremely long life spans because pure lead does not corrode, flake and scale like lead calcium and lead antimony. Th eTelecom sector has been using pure lead batteries for 60 years, and most of the better AGM batteries use pure lead to get maximum life out of them.

Many if not most of the AGM's uses thin pure lead in a jelly roll configuration. Pure lead batteries have much lower internal resistances and when rolled out thin and close proximity to adjacent plates can achieve extremely high discharge and charge rate.

Back to your comment your comment; you do not see a lot of pure lead flat plate designs because they are not good for mobile or other installations that involve movement or vibrations. Another reason you do not see a lot of them in consumer markets is they are more expensive, but pure lead batteries dominate the industrial sector. A great example is Fork Lift batteries in a tubular jelly roll design. Many of the fork lift batteries come with 10 to 20 year warranties, and be be discharged all the way down to 80% DOD and achieve 5000 cycles or more.

There is even a great Flat Plate design I have used a lot in large telephone offices, called the Western Electric Round Cell now manufactured by C&D. There are thousands of those still out there after 40 years of service and still test out to 80% and better rated capacity.

These sound interesting.

[Sundetective]

You say you want to Learn?

Say that again in English please. Preferably at the elementary school level and slowly. What are you saying?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vw2CrY9Igs

Some of us .... namely me ...... are synaptically challenged.

Thank you very much.

Just take it a bit at a time:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<SNIP>

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Ni...13_m2.2.1.html

Pull up the Solar Ni-Fe Cell Catalogue.

Go to:

1.6.3 Internal Resistance

1.6.9 Water Consumption and Gas Evolution

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If just these 2 KEYS, offered freely by Changhong Batteries, are not worth any discussion
than why bother to put any further time into Ni-Fe batteries?

Here you find the exact roots of Mike's troubles.


Bill Blake

[plataoplomo]

Enersys Solar One HUP[/URL]. Rolls has 10 years, and Enersys has 12 year. Professionally I use Enersys.

Thank you. I will look at them very closely.

http://proto.hupsolarone.com/?page_id=99#8

"Q. Can the Solar-One® be purchased “Dry Charged”

A. No"


Well ....... Sh_t. That kinda kills that deal.

[plataoplomo]

If just these 2 KEYS, offered freely by Changhong Batteries, are not worth any discussion
than why bother to put any further time into Ni-Fe batteries?

Here you find the exact roots of Mike's troubles.

Thank you. I will study this hard and try to understand what your leading me to.

I've asked Sunking, I'll ask you.

What 48vdc battery bank in the 800ah -> 1000ah do you prefer? What is your personal opinion?

Thank you.

[Mike90250]

Pull up the Solar Ni-Fe Cell Catalogue.

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/down/index/51c6482e4c9c74edf078767c5cf80eaf.pdf

Go to:

1.6.3 Internal Resistance

1.6.9 Water Consumption and Gas Evolution
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If just these 2 KEYS, offered freely by Changhong Batteries, are not worth any discussion
than why bother to put any further time into Ni-Fe batteries?

Here you find the exact roots of Mike's troubles.

Bill Blake

Huh ?
Internal resistance ? I'm not seeing an issue with that AFIK. My peak loading is barely over 2KW, for just a couple minutes (toaster for the wife's toast) 800ah batteries, in a 48V system, should be able to manage 45amps for a couple minutes. Generally, my load is under 400w (8 amps). Internal resistance might be measurable at that scale, but should have virtually no effects.

Water Consumption
Yes, well known higher voltage = more consumption. It's just that NiFe has a higher evolution rate than PbH2so4 batteries. And in a solar system, if the voltage is lowered, there are not enough solar hours in the day to recharge. It's an evil teeter-totter: full charge or water. And I hear, as the electrolyte carbonates, they consume even more water. Believe me, the first day with no crisis, I'll measure the carbonates.

[inetdog]

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Ni...13_m2.2.1.html

Pull up the Solar Ni-Fe Cell Catalogue.

Go to:

1.6.3 Internal Resistance

1.6.9 Water Consumption and Gas Evolution

Bill Blake

The link should be this.

(http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Nickel-lron(Ni-Fe)_c13_m2.2.1.html)

[Sundetective]

The link should be this.

(http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Ni...3_m2.2.1.html)

Thanks, Ni-Fedog

The Link worked fine the first time - then stopped working the second time.

Like somebody 'did me'

Are you computer savvy enough to make those 2 Changhong passages copy and paste to the forum?

I'd like to stick my neck out on dem a little bit.


Bill Blake

[plataoplomo]

Are you computer savvy enough to make those 2 Changhong passages copy and paste to the forum?

I'd like to stick my neck out on dem a little bit. Bill Blake

1.6.3 Internal Resistance

The internal resistance of a cell varies with the type of service and the state of charge, thus it is difficult to define and measure it accurately.

The most practical value for normal applications is the discharge voltage response to a change in discharge current.

After fully charged at normal temperature, the NiFe cells are 50% discharged, the internal resistance is about 20% higher.

When 90% discharged, it is about 80% higher.

In addition, reducing the ambient temperature can also increase the internal resistance. E.g. the internal resistance is about 40% higher at 0 degrees C.

1.6.9 Water Consumption and Gas Evolution

Surplus charge or overcharge will break down the water of the electrolyte into oxygen and hydrogen, so pure distilled water should be added to compensate for water loss.

In theory the quantity of water consumed can be calculated according to the Faradic equation that each Ah of overcharge breaks down 0.366CC of water.

However, due to the recombination separator used in Changhong NF-S series NiFe cell, the water usage will be considerably less than this.

The following graph gives typical water consumption values over different ranges of voltages at various temperatures.

water.jpg

The battery gives off no gas during discharge. The electrolysis of 1 CC water generates 200 CC of mixture gas in the proportion of 2/3 hydrogen and 1/3 oxygen.

----------------------

(I'm the FNG here so I guess I get to do the re-keying)

[Sundetective]

1.6.3 Internal Resistance

The internal resistance of a cell varies with the type of service and the state of charge, thus it is difficult to define and measure it accurately.

The most practical value for normal applications is the discharge voltage response to a change in discharge current.

After fully charged at normal temperature, the NiFe cells are 50% discharged, the internal resistance is about 20% higher.

When 90% discharged, it is about 80% higher.

In addition, reducing the ambient temperature can also increase the internal resistance. E.g. the internal resistance is about 40% higher at 0 degrees C.

1.6.9 Water Consumption and Gas Evolution

Surplus charge or overcharge will break down the water of the electrolyte into oxygen and hydrogen, so pure distilled water should be added to compensate for water loss.

In theory the quantity of water consumed can be calculated according to the Faradic equation that each Ah of overcharge breaks down 0.366CC of water.

However, due to the recombination separator used in Changhong NF-S series NiFe cell, the water usage will be considerably less than this.

The following graph gives typical water consumption values over different ranges of voltages at various temperatures.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2496[/ATTACH]

The battery gives off no gas during discharge. The electrolysis of 1 CC water generates 200 CC of mixture gas in the proportion of 2/3 hydrogen and 1/3 oxygen.

----------------------

(I'm the FNG here so I guess I get to do the re-keying)

Thanks Mark. Your on time

I would like to give 'the peanut gallery' time to review and savor the material.

Then, Lord (and Russ) willing, I can take another stab at this mess.

In the meantime I feel bad for John Mario. We might get into it but we went back and forth
so long with ideas (private email) and him teaching me what he knew for so long that I can see his points.
He made mistakes and he did his time.

He was, still is and will always be the 'Granddaddy of the Chinese Ni-Fe Battery Game'.

His former 'sales manager' (and competitor now) is far, far more dangerous than he is in my book.
I've stated why.

How about that: "The electrolysis of 1 CC water generates 200 CC of mixture gas in the proportion of
2/3 hydrogen and 1/3 oxygen."

When and Where did you ever see that before?

Long live 'Changhong and The Electric Indian'

So does that mean that both the KOH and the LiOH are being 'supercharged' with Oxygen and gaining
carbonate weight - kind of like how gasoline gains so much weight when it burns?

Back in the 70's a man had to be in shape for the following Links.
Adding too much weight could cause you or your date to pass out - if she wasn't 'right'.
Things just had to be tight & 'right'.

As Mike throws dat 16.5 Volts to those poor badboys - perhaps the 'fatboy' weight gain process begins:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7EfnYwpmOE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_sY2rjxq6M

Bill Blake

[plataoplomo]

I would like to give 'the peanut gallery' time to review and savor the material.

Bill Blake

Ok. I think I understand what your saying.

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...e-issues/page2 ......... post #11.

By increasing the charging rate to be more competitive in the RE market .....

ChangHong may have created an engine in the electrolyte that creates its own carbonate without contact to open air. Correct?

KOH and the ULTIMATE CO2 Absorbent (of Apollo 13 Fame) Lithium Hydroxide need to be considered as CO2 sources from WITHIN.

Why because it absorbed yet more Carbon Dioxide and may become Yet Another CO2 SOURCE from WITHIN.

I gotta ask.

IF....... we are not exposed to the open air, (purpose of the float oil), what's the carbon source?

I understand we got 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen from the electrolysis. Where's the carbon to bind with 2 oxygen to create CO2 coming from?

My expertise was not in chemistry, but in operating and maintaining in-situ systems that measured carbon concentrations in the atmosphere.

[inetdog]

IF....... we are not exposed to the open air, (purpose of the float oil), what's the carbon source?

I understand we got 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen from the electrolysis. Where's the carbon to bind with 2 oxygen to create CO2 coming from?

I think the idea is that the LiOH was low quality or contaminated in shipping or handling and contained a fair amount of absorbed CO2 to begin with before it was put into the electrolyte mixture. Other than that, you are correct that without a carbon source, you will not have carbonate!

[Sundetective]

Ok. I think I understand what your saying.

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...e-issues/page2 ......... post #11.

By increasing the charging rate to be more competitive in the RE market .....

ChangHong may have created an engine in the electrolyte that creates its own carbonate without contact to open air. Correct?




I gotta ask.

IF....... we are not exposed to the open air, (purpose of the float oil), what's the carbon source?

I understand we got 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen from the electrolysis. Where's the carbon to bind with 2 oxygen to create CO2 coming from?

My expertise was not in chemistry, but in operating and maintaining in-situ systems that measured carbon concentrations in the atmosphere.

It's a deep subject. Once again if you just take it a bit at a time.

The Link you posted talks about CO2 being in the distilled water.
Does the water test acidic - or does it not.
Stop right here for a bit.
Why keep wondering and reaching for new things - before a simple pH test?
You hear about Mike dumping that distilled water in like he's a human fire engine - don't you.

Changhong Batteries says the Float Oil Game is old news and they tell their commercial customers
to forget about using it.
John Mario D'Angelo isn't very excited about it either.

For all we know bacteria could be growing in the oil layer and slowly breaking the oil back into
raw carbon compounds. As the bacteria dies it's dry weight is also about 1/2 carbon.
Who knows.

As inetdog said I suspect that BOTH the KOH and the LiOH have plenty95 of carbon absorbed into them
before making it into the Ni-Fe Cells. Would it take a genius to find out?
Or just someone a little on the ball with a few dollars for a Lab and the postage?

Why has Beutilityfree taken it upon themselves to cut China out of the chemical end
of the Ni-Fe battery shipment now? The devils

Why the pain in the a-s Liability of a double shipment from China AND America with
sticking the neck out?

Right off the bat you had a fellow complaining a little about the aggravation he endured because of the
new split shipment of batteries and chemicals.
This was in Fieldlines (Otherpower) on 10/27/12.
The thread is called 'Ni-Fe battery'.
The fellow 'Off grid in Tonopah' did a real nice job with NICE pictures and good copy.

If anything 'Off grid in Tonopah' supports 'Diamond John Mario' and was not out to cry other than having to wait 2 extra weeks for the electrolyte chemicals.

This guy doesn't play. He even makes up ice blocks of distilled water.

Obviously there may have been some sort of problem with the Ni-Fe Battery Chemicals - someplace.
Speak up John.
What's the latest scheme?
Bringing the Ni-Fe Cells in already filled someday?
Like China does for their commercial customers here in America.

Bill Blake

[Sundetective]

Rolls DRY CHARGED BATTERIES

From time to time a person will get obsessed with what Rolls can do.
In years past I've been one of them.

Here's the latest on Rolls from a post I did in another forum for the Holidays.

"Happy Holidays to ALL da gang out there!
You know who you are.

A fellow from this forum just wrote to me wanting a little inside info on Ni-Fe Batteries and
the Legendary "Dry Charged" Rolls Batteries.

I see he just ran Posts at the Survival Monkey forum and the SolarPanelTalk forum about it.

Being a nice guy I looked for a Link for him and stumbled into

'The Back Door Man' world that the sly devil Rolls Boys set up.

I wasn't aware of it - were you?.

Little 'Tasties' like:

Pulse Charging - Flooded Lead Acid Batteries

Pulse Charging

Pulse charging has shown that banks do not get as severely sulfated as ones with traditional
3 step charging when subjected to the same undercharge conditions.
Pulse charging will lower the degree of sulfation but it will not eliminate the need for a controlled,
preventive equalization.
The benefit of pulse charging is that the bank will require less overcharge and, therefore,
less maintenance.

Was this article useful? Yes or No

http://support.rollsbattery.com/solution/categories/687/folders/10489/articles/429-pulse-charging-flooded-lead-acid-batteries

Solutions → Activating Dry Charged Batteries → Instructions

Activating Dry Charged Batteries

Special order batteries may be shipped dry (acid shipped separately).
To activate these batteries, start by removing the vent caps. Using approved battery grade electrolyte
(1.265),
fill each cell
half way between the plates and the bottom of the vent well tube.
It is important not to over fill the cells as the acid will expand upon charging.
If the cells are too full, the acid will spill out of the top of the cells.
Allow electrolyte to saturate into the plates and separators for at least 90 minutes.
The temperature of the electrolyte will rise and the specific gravity will drop.
Once this is complete, place the batteries on charge at the finishing rate
(5% of the 8 or 20 hour rate).
The rate may be increased if the battery does not begin to gas.
Do not let the cell temperature exceed 115° F (46° C).
If the temperature becomes excessive or the cells begin to gas vigorously,
reduce the
rate of charge.
Continue charging until the cell (or cells) reaches within .005 points of the specific gravity of the filling electrolyte
corrected for 77° F (25° C).
We recommend to continue charging for an additional 60 minutes to insure no further rise in specific gravity.
Top up or remove electrolyte as necessary for proper level.
Never add electrolyte (only approved water) after activation.
Replace vent caps and remove any spillage of electrolyte.
If necessary, clean with bicarbonate of soda and water (100 grams of soda to one liter of water).
Rinse with water and wipe dry. Ensure that soda solution does not get into cells.
*Do not place on charge until electrolyte temperature is below 35°C.
For detailed information on Battery Activation, please refer to Rolls Battery User Manual

Was this article useful? Yes or No

http://support.rollsbattery.com/solution/categories/695/folders/1396/articles/437-activating-dry-charged-batteries

Now I knows where the graphs disappeared to, the devils:

Solutions

General Default solution category, feel free to edit or delete it.

Battery Charging

Battery User Manual

Battery Maintenance - Flooded Lead Acid Batteries

Warranty Battery Test Sheet, Warranty Claim Form

Equalization

Measuring Specific Gravity

Activating Dry Charged Batteries Inspect the cell for damage, Read Warning Label On Cell Before Proceeding. R...

Graphs

http://support.rollsbattery.com/home

Bill Blake"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are yet more questions about the shelf life of the Dry Charged Roll's units as of 12/30/12.

"Shelf life of a dry charge battery will vary, but may be kept for several years under ideal conditions.
Store in a cool dry area. The positive plate has an unlimited shelf life.
The negative plate will revert to lead oxide when in the presence of water and oxygen.

If this should happen, the battery is not ruined, but activation will take considerably longer.

The electrolyte temperature will rise dramatically during activation. Do not place on charge until the temperature drops below 115° F. Activation may take several days".

http://support.rollsbattery.com/solution/categories/695/folders/1396/articles/427-activating-instructions-dry-charged-batteries-detailed-

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Over the years I was granted a lot of inside info by some of the Roll's gang.
They have brought them back to life after over 10 years.
Little bit of damage and it takes a long time - but not bad.
Not bad at all.

If it was me I would use Mylar Bags, Moisture AND Oxygen Absorbers around each Battery
AS WELL.

A purist would put the Mylar bag inside of another vessel - like a sealed drum - and drop ABSORBER PACKS
in that BADBOY AS WELL.

Now your ready for Freddie.

As of a while back (the last time I was into it)

you should consult the Legendary SorbentSystems.

http://www.sorbentsystems.com/mylar.html

I do hope that this will close this case!

Bill Blake

[inetdog]

From time to time a person will get obsessed with what Rolls can do.
In years past I've been one of them.
.
.
.
Now I knows where the graphs disappeared to, the devils:

Solutions

General Default solution category, feel free to edit or delete it.

Battery Charging

Battery User Manual

Battery Maintenance - Flooded Lead Acid Batteries

Warranty Battery Test Sheet, Warranty Claim Form

Equalization

Measuring Specific Gravity

Activating Dry Charged Batteries Inspect the cell for damage, Read Warning Label On Cell Before Proceeding. R...

Graphs

http://support.rollsbattery.com/home

Bill Blake

I am sure that the very detailed graph of cycle life versus depth of discharge for the 5000 series will start another round of "Why not just use smaller batteries and a higher DOD, and replace them more often?"

For 20% DOD, 5000 cycles ---> total life AH = 1000 x C
For 50% DOD, 3200 cycles ---> total life AH = 1600 x C
For 80% DOD, 2100 cycles ---> total life AH = 1680 x C

[plataoplomo]

I do hope that this will close this case!

Thank you. Happy new year to all.