Nickel Iron Battery - NREL Test Results

[Sunking]

(1) Coulombic Efficiency does NOT equal Watts In versus Watts Out. NiFe batts charge at a very high voltage relative to their discharge. If I put 100 amps in at 1.6 volts and pull those same 100 amps out at 1.3 volts, that's only 81% efficient on power recovery even though I might be 100% efficient in coulombs. Also, the harder you pull on a NiFe the lower the voltage will be (i.e. voltage sag). Therefore the more instantaneous watts you draw, the lower the overall efficiency you will experience from the battery. This is worse for a NiFe than a traditional LA cell due to higher internal cell resistance.

That nugget of information for me is the final nail in the coffin. This means you must grossly over size the panel wattage, and battery capacity.

[Sunking]

(2) Water loss is a given with NiFe... According to the Nernst equation for splitting water, the water loss due to electrolysis can occur with as little as 1.23 volts across the cell. Truthfully speaking though, you gotta give it a bit more of a nudge to get over the threshold hump for the electrolysis reaction to proceed so it's really more like 1.48 volts that splits the water in the cell. That's great for a lead acid cell as we typically charge just a little lower than this, but unfortunately for NiFe we use higher voltages. For example, Mike said he absorbs at about 67.5 on a 48 volt bank - or about 1.68 volts per cell (assuming he's got 40 cells). If he absorbed at a lower voltage he'd use less water - but he'd also not pack the cells as full / fast. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is with NiFe.

OK you got me confused here. Lead Acid charge voltage per cell is 2.2 to 2.4 volts per cell which is higher than NiFe.

[Mike90250]

That nugget of information for me is the final nail in the coffin. This means you must grossly over size the panel wattage, and battery capacity.

Yep, that's why I added a 2Kw array AND have a humongous battery bank, to keep the internal resistance issue at bay.

[Sunking]

Yep, that's why I added a 2Kw array AND have a humongous battery bank, to keep the internal resistance issue at bay.

Don't take this wrong; But how is that working out for you?

[Sundetective]

The Ni-Fe Law of the electrolyte

Until we Listen to what Changhong and The Electric Indian
Has Learned
After hundreds of thousands of Ni-Fe Cells over the course of a few decades -
We know Little.

Changhong has ALWAYS said that the Carbonates AND the Lead levels need
to be tested. They are just getting a little 'heavier' about it in 2014.
The 'Father of Chinese Nickel Iron in America'
'Diamond' John Mario D'Angelo understands just fine.
He understands that you WILL test for at Least Carbonates EVERY YEAR or he
Plays you some 'Frank Zappa'
'The price of meat has just gone up and your Nickel Iron Warranty
Has just gone down'.

On a different note the Nickel Iron USA 'Boys' did away with Potassium
Hydroxide and jacked the Lithium Hydroxide WAY UP which was to be expected.
The Sodium Hydroxide is not new however the Sodium Sulfide seems to be a new twist.

I don't care to put much time into it but did Look at them again yesterday
For an hour or so.

To believe those fellows would be like saying everything on the
Twilight Zone Show is factual. What a Line of jive those Dudes are
Laying out on people that do no homework.
It's young family guys hustling to support children that I worry about
Getting the shaft.
Of course if someone wants to defend any claims being made by the
USA Batteries old Bill is always here waiting.

Bill Blake

[davidb]

@ 37000$ for my needs, I dont think I"ll be ordering any soon. I spent Half that amount on building a 1100 sqare foot Cabin shell this year.

[Sundetective]

If you want some cheap entertainment read the jive put out in the name of

Sandia National Labs at mostly

Encell Technology expense.

Think it was this August that the 'Big Sandia / Encell Technology
Report' came out.
The new Encell Technology Patents are out recently as well.

Doubt there is enough interest for full details.

Let old Bill just let "da good ole boys' know that I would take
The time to take all those jive artists on -
all at the same time

If only all their Doctors and Presidents dared.
It's terrible how stupid they must feel that we all are.
Old Bill is intebulaant - not dungb

Bill Blake

[Mike90250]

Don't take this wrong; But how is that working out for you?

just working, going to do an electrolyte change in the spring. The tough part is the inverter's integral charger won't quite go to high enough voltage (64v, I want 67v). And I'm not able to find a 67v power source that is not 3 phase, or actually set for 75V. When I don't have sun, I can't get a full charge, just a partial, so I have to run the genset 2x a day

[russ]

If you want some cheap entertainment read the jive put out in the name of

Sandia National Labs at mostly

So we should believe Bill the BS'er that can't even formulate an intelligent, readable sentence?

Bill - Either do better or get lost.

[Murby]

So here we are in 2017..

I'd like to here from Mike90250.. how are those NiFe batteries doing? What is your opinion on them after a few years now?

[Mike90250]

Still living off them. They are working fine, drinking plenty of distilled and providing ballast so the building won't blow away !

LFP was not an option when I purchased them. I need something that can take 4-15 days of limited recharging in the winter rain & gloom. Lead acid banks die around New Years around here, the poor sun finally kills the weak ones off every season. Some folks here just run the genset 24/7 in the winter.

[Murby]

Still living off them. They are working fine, drinking plenty of distilled and providing ballast so the building won't blow away !

LFP was not an option when I purchased them. I need something that can take 4-15 days of limited recharging in the winter rain & gloom. Lead acid banks die around New Years around here, the poor sun finally kills the weak ones off every season. Some folks here just run the genset 24/7 in the winter.

So you're happy with them? How about a rating (1= poor to 10= great) ?? How much do they drink?
You mentioned they are loud from all the hissing action.. is that a problem? How loud?

I'm considering dropping some cash on a battery bank.... 1/4 of my needs are practical, the other 3/4 are just the prepper in me wanting something to fall back on if/when SHTF.... I'm the kind of person who buys leather, stainless and real wood.. The kind of person who uses three screws instead of two... and it seems to me the NiFe batteries are superior if one has the extra cash to throw at them.. I just want to make sure I'm not throwing my money at an over advertised product with a clever sales pitch.

Do you have the Iron Edison battery brand or some other brand? If you could go back, would you still choose the NiFe batteries?

Thanks!

[Mike90250]

Iron edison, is a brand, stamped onto chi-dong <sp> cells

NiFe is Inefficient. You will need 30-40% more PV to charge them
They chew through a lot of water, electrolizing it My 40 ea, 800ah cells go through about 8 or 9 gallons a month. The sound of a room full of bubbling cells is just the sound of nightime power
They have high internal resistance, so you need a larger bank to supply surges and avoid inverter cutoffs from voltage sag
And I think this is the last year I can get by on the electrolyte. Going to have to replace it next summer. really hard to store the spare chemical, you mix at time of using.
Having used them the last 6 or so years, the only factor to use them is the ability to idle at any state without damage, LFP cells can do that, Not sure yet on their overall lifetime, but I might steer you toward that tech, seems to be starting to be more acceptance of it.

[Murby]

Ya, since reading this thread, I'm starting to lean towards the Lithium Ion... Looking at LG, Sonnen and Tesla... What's cool is that even though the batteries seem to be more expensive, they also come with their own 240 split phase inverters built in...

[Mike90250]

That's because the batteries are so touchy, it's real easy to fry them.