carbonated NiFe issues

[Sundetective]

Congratulations! I rec'd mine a few weeks ago. [the TN700 but 12 v. bank]. I am presently in the charge/discharge cycle to get them up to capacity. Discharging is a chore, let me tell you. Simple to get them down to about 10.5 volts, further down than that I'm using the 12 v. lighting in our home. [Leaving them all on for a couple days, except in the bedroom.] I am on the second discharge and want to do one more after this. I did let them run the house for a few days at first, due to time constraints on my part and to get a quick look at how they'd do. They did fine. I also charged them up fully once and put no loads on them, and after three days, they had dropped only 0.2 to 0.3 volts.

I came on this forum some months ago with questions about these batteries but was met with such derision I figured this was the wrong forum. Maybe not, if you are also going this direction.

Congrat's again. Once mine left Shanghai, it was about 2 1/2 weeks til they hit shore in the LA area. Then it was something like three days til customs got around to releasing them. So you probably have about three weeks more waiting...once the ship sails.

Hello,

Has anyone taken any electrolyte temperature readings as they charge their NiFe batteries?
What little info that Changhong Battery Co. does release over the years can be very interesting.
It doesn't seem like that many people have actually read what they have to say since it
conflicts with so many stories and half truths. When I first heard about NiFe years ago I felt that the
electrolyte would be the biggest concern. Now I know it is.

You can take giant leaps in the amount of the electrolyte reservoir size per 100 Amp Hours
by slightly changing a Cell size. Also since Changhong jumped from 10 grams per Liter of LiOH.H2O
prior to January 2008 to a whopping 40 grams per litter after 1/08. You are now talking big money.
Someone might want the jumbo electrolyte size or they may not. The Temp readings will tell us all.

Certain people looking for greater charging efficiency claim to be using well over 50% more Lithium Hydroxide
than 40 grams per liter.
If a large Cell held say 17.5 Liters of electrolyte at 40 grams per Liter your up to 700 grams PER CELL Per Change.

How much does it cost for 700 grams of Reagent Grade or Battery Grade LiOH.H20 $
Times 10? Times 20? Times 40?

What about float oil to slow down the carbonate infestation? Can Mineral Oil with no written approval VOID your warranty?
What about how often you want to Really change the Electrolyte in these NiFe batteries.

Smart Charging Voltage and Current Levels - not monkey see, monkey do?
What about bad Charging advice.

These are controversial subjects being pushed, poked and prodded lately.
The answers may not wind up being what you think.

Can the proper knowledge and simple tactics cut your problems and your overhead by
a drastic percentage?

What is the language in the New guarantee and what does it mean? What does a new NiFe warranty say as of August 1, 2011
and why does it say what it now says. Who really knows what is happening?

The electrolyte management could really benefit from someone that actually put out the big money
on Big Cells sticking a cheap thermometer in a Cell during various stages of charging.

Changhong is not talking about years and years before you worry about that electrolyte.
Keep in mind they are the guys making most of the NiFe batteries so all the he said, she said, is gone now.
It's the Builders SAY.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................................

<snip from Changhong>

The electrolyte will absorb the carbon dioxide in the air and create carbonate easily during operation.

When carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, the performance of the battery will be badly effected.

After charge and discharge for 150~200 cycles or operate for 1 year, please check the carbonate in the electrolyte.

If the carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, please replace the electrolyte.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................................

They say what they mean and mean what they say.

Their Trouble Shooting sections will slap you silly with reasons why you may have to change that Very Expensive go-go juice.
Let's eliminate the reasons.

I am for the batteries - not against them but I needed to know the truth so it could set me free from
THOUSANDS of Dollars of potential premature and unnecessary damage and expenses by playing the sweetboy.

If the Internal Resistance numbers are close to Ni-cad, which some Chinese outfits do publish, then the sales pitch of spending
a smaller amount (just to try them) on small 100 AMP Cells will not cut it AT ALL. I'm guessing they are very similar.
Charging is it's own subject not brushed on here.

You probably need the big money battery test bed to get measurements that count.
You also need a crowd that actually thinks and cares.
Where has this simple info been all this time??

There are a LOT of considerations but this is plenty for right now.

I figure the Electrolyte Temperature and Life Span is just the beginning of a whole can of worms.
.................................................. .................................................. ..............................................

<snip> From the 2010 Brochure:

'CHANGHONG NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries for solar PV application'

1.6.8 Effect of Temperature on Lifetime

Changhong NF-S series NiFe cell is designed for 20- year service life , but the increase in the temperature of electrolyte

will r e d u c e t h e e x p e c t e d l i f e. In general , every 9℃ increase in temperature over the normal ambient temperature of 25℃

r e d u c e s t h e s e r v i c e l i f e o f Changhong NF-S series NiFe cell by 20%. For lead-acid batteries , it will be 50%.

The following figure shows the comparison graph of life expected at high temperature for both Ni-Fe and lead-acid batteries.
.................................................. .................................................. ..................................................

The TN Series and the 'Solar' NF-S series are said to be the same item with a different name.
However the Changhong literature does show slight differences in the electrolyte volumes.
That may just be a sales fake since they claim the same case sizes.

Extremely interesting batteries!

BB

[Guest]

Electrolyte changing issue

.................................................. ..................................

<snip from Changhong>

The electrolyte will absorb the carbon dioxide in the air and create carbonate easily during operation.

When carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, the performance of the battery will be badly effected.

After charge and discharge for 150~200 cycles or operate for 1 year, please check the carbonate in the electrolyte.

If the carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, please replace the electrolyte.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................................
Hello BB,

We have been importing their predecessor cells (WUZHOU)and there cells (Chanchong) since 1995. We have thousands of cells in the field and to date (ie since 1995, we know of only ONE customer to date that has had to charge the electrolyte out. If people are changing the electrolyte they are buying the chemicals from someone else because they sure have not come to us for replacement electrolyte!

We have a 500 AH, 24V in our possession. It was installed in 1996, used daily on a PV off grid system, and we changed electrolyte in 2001. We are now waiting on samples from that same set to see what the carbonate concentration is. That set was tested in 2004 and tested at 100% of rated C/5 capacity. It is now 2011 and we want to test some of the cells. Therefore, from ACTUAL field experience it seems that China has it wrong. It seems to me that the worse case senario is about 5 years maybe. But the best case up to 10 years. Even at its worse case, say 5 years, changing electrolyte sure beats buying a whole new battery bank every 5-7 years for a medium priced L16 battery bank.

We are working with the manufacturer to get them to change the cell body to allow a small liquid pump to be put in the cell in which you could suck out the fluid (like you do in a car engine) and make the electrolyte change a "snap".

I believe that one does have to be aware that the cells WILL NEED an electrolyte change during the batteries lifetime. How many electrolyte changes seems to still be a mystery. I also believe that the changes will depend on how well you keep the air out of the cells. We are working on a system that will prevent any air from entering the cells.

When I have more time I may address some of your other concerns.

JD
CEO BeUtilityFree, Inc

[Sundetective]

.................................................. ..................................

<snip from Changhong>

The electrolyte will absorb the carbon dioxide in the air and create carbonate easily during operation.

When carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, the performance of the battery will be badly effected.

After charge and discharge for 150~200 cycles or operate for 1 year, please check the carbonate in the electrolyte.

If the carbonate in the electrolyte is over 50g/L, please replace the electrolyte.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................................
Hello BB,

We have been importing their predecessor cells (WUZHOU)and there cells (Chanchong) since 1995. We have thousands of cells in the field and to date (ie since 1995, we know of only ONE customer to date that has had to charge the electrolyte out. If people are changing the electrolyte they are buying the chemicals from someone else because they sure have not come to us for replacement electrolyte!

We have a 500 AH, 24V in our possession. It was installed in 1996, used daily on a PV off grid system, and we changed electrolyte in 2001. We are now waiting on samples from that same set to see what the carbonate concentration is. That set was tested in 2004 and tested at 100% of rated C/5 capacity. It is now 2011 and we want to test some of the cells. Therefore, from ACTUAL field experience it seems that China has it wrong. It seems to me that the worse case senario is about 5 years maybe. But the best case up to 10 years. Even at its worse case, say 5 years, changing electrolyte sure beats buying a whole new battery bank every 5-7 years for a medium priced L16 battery bank.

We are working with the manufacturer to get them to change the cell body to allow a small liquid pump to be put in the cell in which you could suck out the fluid (like you do in a car engine) and make the electrolyte change a "snap".

I believe that one does have to be aware that the cells WILL NEED an electrolyte change during the batteries lifetime. How many electrolyte changes seems to still be a mystery. I also believe that the changes will depend on how well you keep the air out of the cells. We are working on a system that will prevent any air from entering the cells.

When I have more time I may address some of your other concerns.

JD
CEO BeUtilityFree, Inc

JD,

The 500 Amp Hour Cells you installed in 1996. Who made them?

How much does it cost for the YEARLY Carbonate Test per Cell which BUF demands and requires -

or the Battery Guarantee becomes VOID.

How much do 500 gram canisters of top quality Lithium Hydroxide cost nowadays? Not that weak 56% stuff.

What about a set of (40) 800 Amp Hour NiFe Cells that need 28,000 grams (Twenty Eight Thousand) grams (US)
of LiOH powder?

When Changhong says to mix the KOH with distilled water at a weight ratio of 1 part Flake to 3 parts Water
would that be around 333 grams of KOH per Liter of distilled water?

Then add the 40 grams of LiOH per liter of water?
That one has been killing me with conflicting data.

At that rate we are talking about over 500 Pounds (US) of KOH Flake plus the 28,000 grams of LiOH.


You see JD it is a very legitimate concern when the cost of Electrolyte for the 800 Series could begin to approach
the cost of a something like an equal amount of Kilowatt Hours in a 5000 Series Set of Rolls Surrette Batteries.
That's what I'mmmmm talking about. Reality strikes deep on this deal !!

Then my initial cost for the NiFe Cells with a good discount is about equal to a complete set of the 820 Ah Rolls 5000 Series, 48 Volt,

plus 2 (TWO) MORE Stored Sets of the Rolls 820 Ah, 48 Volt, 5000 Series batteries that are the Rare, TRUE DRY CELLS,

that have VACUUM PACKED CELLS - with Free Shipping. Three sets of Batteries total.

Those Dry Packed Cells are a Long Story which I was told by the Plant Manager (at the time) when Surrette
put the big expensive drying room in.

The same price for 3 sets of the Rolls is going to out do any claims that Changhong has ever made ANYTIME, Anywhere
in a number of ways

Yet I still think the NiFe batteries may be worth all this expense including the expensive UNTOLD STORY.
We are getting close to that determination. The reason I feel they may be worth the money is not for the 'Party Line' reasons.
Hang around and they will be revealed to you - if I have time

I'm sorry to hear that Changhong isn't staying on top of it and may have lost control of their faculties.
With the Chinese Government tying them up at 38,000 (or so) battery orders at a clip I would hate to hear that someone got
stood up in front of a wall and shot for lying to everybody.
Never did hear them talk of Mineral OIL or ANY other Float Oil for instance.
They are very curious, do a lot of testing but are very cautious with their Lips.

Changhong has sung the same tune, in writing, about Carbonate Fears and Foreboding in their Official NiFe Battery
Operators and Maintenance Manuals for many years now. The story never changes very much.

It is nice to hear you have a method to avoid the destructive, deadly potassium carbonate infiltration - coming Someday.

If a person lays out the big money to the tune of $32,800.00 + shipping (List price) what do you suggest to

Stop that Air from hitting that Electrolyte Today. The New electrolyte runs THOUSANDS of Dollars (US).

Word is that a big USA Price War is coming soon with Changhong NiFe Cells.
More people will be able to enjoy them.


Thank-you,


BB

[Sunking]

You see JD it is a very legitimate concern when the cost of Electrolyte for the 800 Series could begin to approach
the cost of a something like an equal amount of Kilowatt Hours in a 5000 Series Set of Rolls Surrette Batteries.
That's what I'mmmmm talking about. Reality strikes deep on this deal !!

I hear you, but the supporters do not want to hear it. They also do not want to hear it will take another 20% panel wattage, and that their inverters and charge controllers are not likely compatible.

[Sundetective]

I hear you, but the supporters do not want to hear it. They also do not want to hear it will take another 20% panel wattage, and that their inverters and charge controllers are not likely compatible.

Hi Sunking,

Believe it or not I am a supporter of NiFe. Just want to get past the wives tales and half truths so I can set-up a system
that will stand for my Grandkids even if occasionally abused over time.

Next I would like to talk about Life Cycles and Depth of Discharge.
What Changhong has said, in writing, over the years about it based on their extensive testing over the years.
What Uncle Harry claimed back in 1939 with not an ounce of documentation or research notes doesn't cut it for me.

The intriguing part of this interest has been the conflicts involved with the NiFe subject and the lack of a SIMPLE, sane level
of Tests and Notes done by NiFe customers over the years.

Not only do people and Companies change their tune from Document to Document
but they can sometimes change their tune and have conflicts With THEMSELVES within the same Document.
It's too much. It's fun and beautiful in a twisted way

In full disclosure I'm kind of like Fox News and CNN rolled into one on this NiFe deal.
I will say that anything I say or hint at IS ALWAYS backed up in writing though it may seem that I'm just having fun
and being mouthy.

As an example I Only communicate by email with people like JD at BeUtilityFree, BW at IronEdison, SE at ZappWorks
and so on.

Sure they will insist I call them on the phone but I do not. I prefer that everything is in writing.
So they may get angry and stop writing to me. Then a couple of weeks later or a month later from out of the blue I hear from them again.

There have been dozens of emails from JD at BeUtilityFree There have been dozens of emails from BW at IronEdison and so forth.
I do not share their email unless it is Company Doctrine that affects everyone's pocket.

I think of myself as an old, well used funnel that is real comfortable to work with.
A place for the combined wisdom in NiFe to get poured and appreciated.

A place for The NiFe Theory of Battery-tivity to have been born


BB

[Sunking]

Hi Sunking,

Believe it or not I am a supporter of NiFe. Just want to get past the wives tales and half truths so I can set-up a system
that will stand for my Grandkids even if occasionally abused over time.

At least you are honest about the short comings and pitfalls of NiFe. There is a reason Edison let the patent expire and all US manufactures quit making them back in the 70's.

Like the 100 years before they have a niche market in mining and rail road sectors, but I doubt they gain any real traction in the RE markets.

[Sundetective]

At least you are honest about the short comings and pitfalls of NiFe. There is a reason Edison let the patent expire and all US manufactures quit making them back in the 70's.

Like the 100 years before they have a niche market in mining and rail road sectors, but I doubt they gain any real traction in the RE markets.

It would be nice to have the Electrolyte Thermometer readings while the NiFe Cells charge at different voltages.
This info will be needed in managing the electrolyte to hopefully prolong replacement in a big way.

Also to know how great the difference in Charging Efficiency is between say 60 to 80% State of Charge versus 80 to 100% SOC.

Unlike Lead Acid the NiFe Cells don't get hurt and Sulfate by avoiding that last 20% or so of charge.

Changhong and others have said if they start to lose capacity over time because of constant undercharging you can just throw
a Boost to the badhammers every once in a while.
Some battery support equipment problems may have fairly simple solutions with this method.

Some fellows selling the Cells may be sending out some real poor Charging advice.
Steven at ZappWorks may be the guy that has a more 'enlightened' understanding of the Charging issue.
It probably goes even deeper than what he has realized. I'm getting ahead of myself because the Charging is definitely a separate post.

There seems to be some overwhelming strengths to NiFe Cells as well as what has been hyped, twisted and amplified.
Just haven't gotten to the good parts that should be so wonderful yet. Had to start somewhere.

I'm hoping people who own the NiFe Cells will do a little testing because until I get a few simple pieces of info that SHOULD already
be available to the public I'm very interested but not buying.

Someone that deals with Changhong should be asking Changhong.
They didn't answer a regular email I sent and I'm not going through that Website of theirs because my computer doesn't like what it sees
just from visiting ANY Battery Company website in China.
For some reason they seem to feel compelled to know your business.

Check this old little study out on Charging Efficiency with Lead Acid. it's a goodie.

http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/PDF/batpapsteve.pdf

What would the overall efficiency have been if you could cut that last 20% or so out??

The 2 battery technologies seem to have a Lot in common along with the Key differences.

This spare the last 20% piece may be a huge key because I don't buy that
Run Them Hard and Beat Them Up routine that is being run by so many.

Changhong has done studies and published data for years that makes an absolute mockery of such statements.
You grab your 20 - 30% the same as you do with LA Batteries
IF you really want some serious years out of them.

It's WHICH 20 - 30% slice you take that I'mmmm talkin about

If John or Brandon do not like something please feel free to 'Speak into the Mike'.



BB

[liquidDog]

I am reading a lot in this thread about huge efforts to cycle battery banks of this size. Is there a charger like this that will do it? (This one does mention being compatible with lead-acid):

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/1574_116/products_id/187710/n/ProTek-R-C-Prodigy-610-DUO-LiPo-LiFe-NiMH-DC-Battery-Charger-6S-10A-200W-x-2

I'm just thinking of initially cycling the batteries. Not a charge controller. Although surely an A123 or LiFe charge controller is not that far off... This thread has piqued my interest in the NiFe cells mentioned, but the costs are a little up there.

Or why not hook up a few 1000W resistors and let the LVC kick in? Just curious if there was a specific reason to drain them manually, like if the batteries have memory problems, etc.

[Sundetective]

I am reading a lot in this thread about huge efforts to cycle battery banks of this size. Is there a charger like this that will do it? (This one does mention being compatible with lead-acid):

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/1574_116/products_id/187710/n/ProTek-R-C-Prodigy-610-DUO-LiPo-LiFe-NiMH-DC-Battery-Charger-6S-10A-200W-x-2

I'm just thinking of initially cycling the batteries. Not a charge controller. Although surely an A123 or LiFe charge controller is not that far off... This thread has piqued my interest in the NiFe cells mentioned, but the costs are a little up there.

Or why not hook up a few 1000W resistors and let the LVC kick in? Just curious if there was a specific reason to drain them manually, like if the batteries have memory problems, etc.

LiquidDog,

Who started the rumor that you have to cycle and start to wear your NiFe batteries out for free after the first good long charge.
I don't see where the builders ever said to. ONLY a Second Initial Charge IF the Cells are out of balance is what they have said.

Unfortunately Changhong got into a predicament with the 2010 Solar Brochure where they were trying to get into a market
where they were trying to Sell 8 hours worth of charge in a 4 hour Solar time slot.

They put that Solar Brochure on their website so a lot of people saw it. The guys selling NiFe in America stated to me they hadn't seen
any previous Changhong Documents before I told one of them in May or June.
However the document he published was a poor choice for charging instructions and says very little.

It depends on what mood they are in as far as how much detail they go into.

With different languages, etc. it can become a real mess unless you can reference several sets of their instructions and put it all in context.
Let it fall into place.
Just trying to explain it sounds a little confusing here but I started the post with the bottom line since after a lot of work they
are now clear as a bell to me. I will get a post on NiFe charging put together.

it's no wonder this new Changhong Sales Angle may have triggered an electrolyte failure epidemic.
It contradicts what they were saying for years about sensible charging methods.
This is 2011 and the Dollar Talks Louder than any of us.

We will call it:

THE 2010 BLIVET CHARGING OF CHANGHONG NIFE BATTERIES.

TRYING TO PUT 8 POUNDS OF CHARGE IN A 4 HOUR BAG.


Blivet

[allegedly from a World War II military term meaning

[Guest]

JD,

The 500 Amp Hour Cells you installed in 1996. Who made them?

How much does it cost for the YEARLY Carbonate Test per Cell which BUF demands and requires -

or the Battery Guarantee becomes VOID.

I'm sorry to hear that Changhong isn't staying on top of it and may have lost control of their faculties.
With the Chinese Government tying them up at 38,000 (or so) battery orders at a clip I would hate to hear that someone got
stood up in front of a wall and shot for lying to everybody.
Never did hear them talk of Mineral OIL or ANY other Float Oil for instance.
They are very curious, do a lot of testing but are very cautious with their Lips.


BB

BB,

Few things I want to address here:

The 500 Ah cells where made by WUZHOU, Changhong's predecessor.

1. What does it cost for a yearly carbonate test?

We can supply the equipment for doing your own testing (about $175) or we can send you our kit and you can send the kit back with sample electrolyte and we can test it. The cost starts at $20 for one test and goes down from there.

2. BUF warranty reads in section 8 "If battery (read cell) electrolyte becomes contaminated with (should read within) the first 10 years then the owner should replace the fluid and an electrolyte change will not effect the warranty period. If the battery (cell(s)) is found to be contaminated with carbonate during a claim then the claim will not be honored. It is the client's responsibility to monitor the electrolyte carbon content."

Simply put if someone claims the cells do not work after 10 years and they send us some sample cells and we find it is carbonate polluted the warranty will not be honored. Since each battery bank is used under different conditions it is the owner responsibility to check carbonate build up in their cells. Normally the general rule is that when the battery bank or cell looses noticeable ah capacity it is time to change electrolyte. WE feel that if you own a NiFE battery bank you need to monitor its carbonate concentrate as a normal maintenance operation. For us a once a year test or every 2 years is well worth it but if just do nothing until your battery capacity starts falling that is ok too. But I think it is much wiser to know where you are at instead of having a "surprise".

3. You are correct. When the Chinese gov wants 38,000 cells all production stops and the 38,000 production starts. This has happened to us a few over the years causing the delivery time to go beyond our normal 60-90 days time frame.

5, Thomas Edison used float oil on his cells. I think it makes sense, but if you don't have to deal with it all the better. As I said before we have in the works a system that should not let any air into the cells. It has been tested on a Eagle Pitcher battery bank for 10 years and their was never a need for an electrolyte change during that 10 years as I understand it.. The owner of the system passed away recently and sent us a sample and said to us fell free to duplicate it.

One last note, Chnagchong is currently building a NEW factory that will just make NiFE cells and no other type.

JD

[Sundetective]

BB,

Few things I want to address here:

The 500 Ah cells where made by WUZHOU, Changhong's predecessor.

1. What does it cost for a yearly carbonate test?

We can supply the equipment for doing your own testing (about $175) or we can send you our kit and you can send the kit back with sample electrolyte and we can test it. The cost starts at $20 for one test and goes down from there.

2. BUF warranty reads in section 8 "If battery (read cell) electrolyte becomes contaminated with (should read within) the first 10 years then the owner should replace the fluid and an electrolyte change will not effect the warranty period. If the battery (cell(s)) is found to be contaminated with carbonate during a claim then the claim will not be honored. It is the client's responsibility to monitor the electrolyte carbon content."

Simply put if someone claims the cells do not work after 10 years and they send us some sample cells and we find it is carbonate polluted the warranty will not be honored. Since each battery bank is used under different conditions it is the owner responsibility to check carbonate build up in their cells. Normally the general rule is that when the battery bank or cell looses noticeable ah capacity it is time to change electrolyte. WE feel that if you own a NiFE battery bank you need to monitor its carbonate concentrate as a normal maintenance operation. For us a once a year test or every 2 years is well worth it but if just do nothing until your battery capacity starts falling that is ok too. But I think it is much wiser to know where you are at instead of having a "surprise".

3. You are correct. When the Chinese gov wants 38,000 cells all production stops and the 38,000 production starts. This has happened to us a few over the years causing the delivery time to go beyond our normal 60-90 days time frame.

5, Thomas Edison used float oil on his cells. I think it makes sense, but if you don't have to deal with it all the better. As I said before we have in the works a system that should not let any air into the cells. It has been tested on a Eagle Pitcher battery bank for 10 years and their was never a need for an electrolyte change during that 10 years as I understand it.. The owner of the system passed away recently and sent us a sample and said to us fell free to duplicate it.

One last note, Chnagchong is currently building a NEW factory that will just make NiFE cells and no other type.

JD

JD, You know that I could easily quibble with you over your real new guarantee but I prefer to keep the NiFe subject moving along.
Why did you change your Electrolyte at the 5 year mark?

Obviously ebay has plenty of old Edison Battery Oil bottles for sale.
Did Edison ever write about using any oil?
I'm wondering if the Oil should be vacuumed out before tipping the Cells. I have a 12 Volt pump that should do it nicely.

I feel that in all fairness you should state that you have suspended ALL Oil Sales since you can't get the Special Chevron Oil
any longer. TODAY I would have to Live on Promises.

As you know I have reason to believe this Carbonate Infestation problem has just started getting smokin since Changhong
jacked up their Charging Voltage to try and please the Solar market with the Blivet Charging.
It's a part of my NiFe Theory of Battery-tivity.

Like I have told you the Professional Carbon Dioxide Absorbents (whether still Powder in Chinese bags sitting around or mixed in water)

KOH and the ULTIMATE CO2 Absorbent (of Apollo 13 Fame) Lithium Hydroxide need to be considered as CO2 sources from WITHIN.

Then like Health Experts will point out - Why does so much Distilled Water test Acidic?

Why because it absorbed yet more Carbon Dioxide and may become Yet Another CO2 SOURCE from WITHIN.

You may HAVE DA FOX LOCKED UP IN THE CHICKEN COOP, JD.

Your Oil just make it more Comfy. The Air means nothing to it.

IT CAN MAKE PLENTY OF IT'S OWN AIR (hydrogen and oxygen) and Terminate Your Game.

Like gasoline when it burns and gains so much weight I have read where the Carbonate process can multiply it's weight
by around 7 times when exposed to enough Oxygen along with the dreaded CO2.
The LiOH Alone is enough to DO YOU.

Changhong may have started a Perfect Storm by using some cheap, sloppy handled chemicals in cheap bags.
Then we know they increased one of the WORLD'S ULTIMATE CO2 Absorbents LiOH by A WHOPPING 400%
in the Electrolyte Formula.

THEN they turn the NiFe Cells into OXYGEN GENERATORS with what may turn out to be very Stupid CHARGING advice
(which they are NOT known for in the past).
Did Greed get the best of them?

As part of those Contradictions that I speak of if you go to the Changhong Website and pull up their:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'CHANGHONG NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries for solar PV application'. <snip>

1.6.9 Water Consumption different ranges of

and Gas Evolution

Surplus charge or overcharge will break down the water of the electrolyte into oxygen and hydrogen , so pure distilled water should

be added to compensate for water loss. In theory , the quantity of water consumed can be calculated according to the Faradic equation

that each Ah of overcharge breaks down 0.0366CC of water. However , due to the combination separator used in Changhong NF-S series

NiFe cell， the water usage will be considerably less than this. The following graph gives typical water consumption values over different ranges

of voltages and various temperatures. The battery gives off no gas during discharge. The electrolysis of will break down the water of 1CC water

generates 2000CC of mixture gas in the proportion of the electrolyte into oxygen and 2/3 hydrogen and 1/3 oxygen.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you should run the Numbers for just one Liter of Water JD.

Keep in mind they STOP the CHART at 1.60V / cell and at 30 degrees Celsius (the devils).

Yet they recommend HIGHER Charging Voltage, in writing as do some like YOU and Brandon at Iron Edison in America (the devils).

Will the Electrolyte Temperature really STAY at 86 degrees Fahrenheit, OR LESS, in writing (the devils).

YOU may be becoming an Innocent Victim in this impending Carbonate Crisis.


BB

[Guest]

JD, You know that I could easily quibble with you over your real new guarantee but I prefer to keep the NiFe subject moving along.
Why did you change your Electrolyte at the 5 year mark?

Obviously ebay has plenty of old Edison Battery Oil bottles for sale.
Did Edison ever write about using any oil?
I'm wondering if the Oil should be vacuumed out before tipping the Cells. I have a 12 Volt pump that should do it nicely.

I feel that in all fairness you should state that you have suspended ALL Oil Sales since you can't get the Special Chevron Oil
any longer. TODAY I would have to Live on Promises.

As you know I have reason to believe this Carbonate Infestation problem has just started getting smokin since Changhong
jacked up their Charging Voltage to try and please the Solar market with the Blivet Charging.
It's a part of my NiFe Theory of Battery-tivity.

Like I have told you the Professional Carbon Dioxide Absorbents (whether still Powder in Chinese bags sitting around or mixed in water)

KOH and the ULTIMATE CO2 Absorbent (of Apollo 13 Fame) Lithium Hydroxide need to be considered as CO2 sources from WITHIN.

Then like Health Experts will point out - Why does so much Distilled Water test Acidic?

Why because it absorbed yet more Carbon Dioxide and may become Yet Another CO2 SOURCE from WITHIN.

You may HAVE DA FOX LOCKED UP IN THE CHICKEN COOP, JD.

Your Oil just make it more Comfy. The Air means nothing to it.

IT CAN MAKE PLENTY OF IT'S OWN AIR (hydrogen and oxygen) and Terminate Your Game.

Like gasoline when it burns and gains so much weight I have read where the Carbonate process can multiply it's weight
by around 7 times when exposed to enough Oxygen along with the dreaded CO2.
The LiOH Alone is enough to DO YOU.

Changhong may have started a Perfect Storm by using some cheap, sloppy handled chemicals in cheap bags.
Then we know they increased one of the WORLD'S ULTIMATE CO2 Absorbents LiOH by A WHOPPING 400%
in the Electrolyte Formula.

THEN they turn the NiFe Cells into OXYGEN GENERATORS with what may turn out to be very Stupid CHARGING advice
(which they are NOT known for in the past).
Did Greed get the best of them?

As part of those Contradictions that I speak of if you go to the Changhong Website and pull up their:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'CHANGHONG NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries for solar PV application'. <snip>

1.6.9 Water Consumption different ranges of

and Gas Evolution

Surplus charge or overcharge will break down the water of the electrolyte into oxygen and hydrogen , so pure distilled water should

be added to compensate for water loss. In theory , the quantity of water consumed can be calculated according to the Faradic equation

that each Ah of overcharge breaks down 0.0366CC of water. However , due to the combination separator used in Changhong NF-S series

NiFe cell， the water usage will be considerably less than this. The following graph gives typical water consumption values over different ranges

of voltages and various temperatures. The battery gives off no gas during discharge. The electrolysis of will break down the water of 1CC water

generates 2000CC of mixture gas in the proportion of the electrolyte into oxygen and 2/3 hydrogen and 1/3 oxygen.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you should run the Numbers for just one Liter of Water JD.

Keep in mind they STOP the CHART at 1.60V / cell and at 30 degrees Celsius (the devils).

Yet they recommend HIGHER Charging Voltage, in writing as do some like YOU and Brandon at Iron Edison in America (the devils).

Will the Electrolyte Temperature really STAY at 86 degrees Fahrenheit, OR LESS, in writing (the devils).

YOU may be becoming an Innocent Victim in this impending Carbonate Crisis.


BB

BB,

We changed the electrolyte because the customer said the cells where losing battery capacity. Plain and simple. WE never tested the carbonate content. The manual said to change the electrolyte the first few hundred cycles, but it certainly appears that the manual was wrong. The battery bank was used in an off grid cabin with the battery bank charged daily.Now the cells have gone more than 5 years without an electrolyte change and we plan to teat the CO2 concentrate shortly to see where things are at. It certainly worked because ewe retested the battery bank and did achieve 100% capacity in a controlled test using an AH meter.

I have read very little in regards to using oil in the Edison cells, but obviously he used it because he sold quite a lot of the stiff in little glass bottles and I am sure larger capacities as well. Oil acts a a BARRIER to the air and helps RETARD the CO build up in the cells. It does not stop it completely!

Yes for some reason I see both empty bottles of oil and full bottles of oil on eBay. I even bought a small glass bottle that has never been opened. UtilityOill 22 is no longer made buy Chevron, however the NiCd people still sell oil and they have been using oil for about as long as I suppose Edison has. Once we find out their source for oil (it may be the same as the oil we have in stock now) we will most likely allow oil to be used on cell tops again. We want to air on the side of caution when you change anything that you put in a cell that last up to 40 years of service or longer, don't you think that is wise? Our greatest fear is that the oil chosen would pollute the electrolyte.

We spoke on the phone to one gentleman who went and bought some mineral oil and it reacted with his electrolyte in his NiFE cells and he ended up having a real mess on his hands. We have tested our oil and so far their has been no problem with the Utility22 oil replacement, but we do feel that if you can have a better system why not do that then mess with sucking oil from the tops of cells?? Bottom line, not all mineral oils are the same!

"YOU may be becoming an Innocent Victim in this impending Carbonate Crisis."

I doubt it from my personal experience with the NiFE ca=ells over a 40 year period. Edison sold his NiFE cells for well over 70 some years before EXide bought the company out. You can't sell something for that length of time and be in a constant "carbonate crisis" ,if you where you could not be in business that long BB.

I will never forget the response of a Edison dealer in Akron, OH. I asked him "Why don't they make Edison cells anymore? He said " they where to good and lasted to long". True and to the point. The lead acid battery world does NOT WANT a battery that will last as long as a NiFE will last. Plain and simple.

I personally believe you are making a mountain out of a molehill BB. Changchong and the their predecessor has been making NiFe cells for some 25 years or longer and you can't be making cells for that long and have some terrible issue with carbonate build up in the cells. FROM OUR EXPERIENCE, experience will trump theory any day. You seem to ramble on and on and on about the carbonate issue and I have pointed out repeatedly that yes, it is something to be aware of when one buys a NiFE battery bank but that it seems to be something that is not a MAJOR issue FROM OUR field experience. Apparently they use hundreds of thousands of them on Chinas railroads (typical orders at a time are 38,000-75,000 an order from their government) I am still a little puzzled as to why they say what they say about electrolyte changes in their manuals.

Now that we are importing more of their cells then ever before only time will tell when carbonate build up occurs and how often. having been around these cells for over 40 years I am confident that the CO problem is not as big of an issues as you seem to believe. Like I have said before to you since we have been importing the cells direct from China since 1995 we have had virtually no people coming back to us for electrolyte changes, so if our customers are changing out electrolyte they are not getting the materials from us....! Perhaps we should contact all our NiFE customers and ask if they have ever had to do an electrolyte change and if so when did they do it. I suspect that the vast majority of people who have bought our NiFE batteries bank use them on a daily basis.

JD
BeUtilityFree, Inc

[Mike90250]

Egads ! I'd known of the Carbonate issue, but was thinking of a way to use nitrogen as a purge, or a piece of masking tape with a pinhole over the cap, to limit the air exchange. I'd thought of a float oil, but figured it'd make a mess as fluid levels flucutate, and it could coat the internal plates.

I will be on the low side of charging voltage, and expect to need generator run time to get full charge for the first couple cycles. Thus, I expected to stay in the higher efficency of the charging curve, and at low amps, keep temps low.

So, I'm still in the waiting mode, as the BUF's selected shipping warehouse screwed up and FedEx could not pick up when scheduled.

Now that I'm back after a futile week vacation, I found I missed another round of layoffs in my absense (I guess it's bad form for the employer to lay you off while you are on vacation) So, I now have to schedule another vacation, likley in November, to wire and commission my batteries, and the sun is so lame then, it will take a lot of genset runtime to charge these up.
At least the tire shop that fixed my flat, didnt charge me for the repair, because they felt bad, making me wait 2 hours for the repair.

[Guest]

carbonate issue

Hey BB and Mike

We have a set of 500 Ah nickel iron cells that where manufactured by WUZHOU battery company which where purchased in 1996. We have had one electrolyte change in 2001 and we are trying to get electrolyte samples so we can test the existing cells.

There have been one or two cells that go negative when they are deep cycled (below 350 Ah or so) so we suspect it may be time to change electrolyte again. Most of the cells are in good shape, it is just the one or two cells that seem to be weak. If the reader knows anything about cells put in series once a cells goes bad or has lower capacity than the rest of the cells in series that one cells can drag down the whole battery bank. So it is important to test INDIVIDUAL cells in ANY battery bank that has a series connection. We advise our customers to label each cell and keep a history of the cells and test them at least once a year and especially if you seem to have a lower battery capacity than before.

We are about to set up a 200 AH battery set of cells made from Changchong battery company (who makes our current cells) at our office and start keeping track of the carbonate build up over time. We will also be monitoring the battery bank as far as AH consumed over time as well as AH put into the battery bank over time. Since we will have a 24 V system we can test different number of cells using different methods to keep the air our of the cells.

We feel confident that the carbonate built up is not going to be a long term problem, but even if you have to change electrolyte out once ever 10 years that sure beats buying a battery set every 10 years! Who knows what any metal will cost 10 years form now? I sure do not!

We will also be contacting our current customer and have them send in samples that we can test for them free of charge. We want to put this issue "to rest" and not be rattled by people who come up with all sorts of theories about this issue. History seems to prove out that the carbonate issue is not as big issue as some seem to believe both in the original nickel iron cells made by Thomas A Edison and as with the Wuzhou cells as well. Changchong cells are still out on trail, but they seem to be holding their own. We will publish the information to the public as well.


JD
BeutilityFree, Inc

[Sundetective]

Hey BB and Mike

We have a set of 500 Ah nickel iron cells that where manufactured by WUZHOU battery company which where purchased in 1996. We have had one electrolyte change in 2001 and we are trying to get electrolyte samples so we can test the existing cells.

There have been one or two cells that go negative when they are deep cycled (below 350 Ah or so) so we suspect it may be time to change electrolyte again. Most of the cells are in good shape, it is just the one or two cells that seem to be weak. If the reader knows anything about cells put in series once a cells goes bad or has lower capacity than the rest of the cells in series that one cells can drag down the whole battery bank. So it is important to test INDIVIDUAL cells in ANY battery bank that has a series connection. We advise our customers to label each cell and keep a history of the cells and test them at least once a year and especially if you seem to have a lower battery capacity than before.

We are about to set up a 200 AH battery set of cells made from Changchong battery company (who makes our current cells) at our office and start keeping track of the carbonate build up over time. We will also be monitoring the battery bank as far as AH consumed over time as well as AH put into the battery bank over time. Since we will have a 24 V system we can test different number of cells using different methods to keep the air our of the cells.

We feel confident that the carbonate built up is not going to be a long term problem, but even if you have to change electrolyte out once ever 10 years that sure beats buying a battery set every 10 years! Who knows what any metal will cost 10 years form now? I sure do not!

We will also be contacting our current customer and have them send in samples that we can test for them free of charge. We want to put this issue "to rest" and not be rattled by people who come up with all sorts of theories about this issue. History seems to prove out that the carbonate issue is not as big issue as some seem to believe both in the original nickel iron cells made by Thomas A Edison and as with the Wuzhou cells as well. Changchong cells are still out on trail, but they seem to be holding their own. We will publish the information to the public as well.


JD
BeutilityFree, Inc

JD, I'm ready to hang the Carbonate problem up for a while and move on but always remember what I said.
What I say can be backed up in writing. In all fairness before saying that I go on and on about next to nothing let's see you put
Your NEW Guarantee as of August 1st up for the gang.

The one you sent me and I proofed it for you.

People will be able to see who is also $ worried $ about the carbonate problem - real quick like.

That 2009 NiFe Man who went through all the changes over the (40) 500 Amp Hour Cells said that he spoke with a few NiFe Battery
manufacturer's overseas including Changhong. This was during his Internet rampage.
He claimed that the Pro's told him the new Lighter, Thinner, more Fragile clear plastic cases brought the Cell weight down.

Old BB figures this tidbit along with an understanding of Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide and other gas transmissibility is probably just another

New Factor to the New Chinese Perfect Storm of Carbonate Problems. BB has foretold you may become an innocent victim of that storm.

As with other fellows we heard about his NiFe Cells coming. Then you may hear about the trials and tribulations connected to the
delivery problems and questions as to who has the Lithium Hydroxide for sale and what have you.
Then they normally drop the NiFe subject and disappear or just clam-up.

In the case of the 2009 guy who lived off grid for decades and was deeply involved with Solar, Wind Turbines, Wind Mill Water Pumps,
off grid Heating Systems, Power Storage, etc., etc. he did leave us with

The Last List of 13 Nickel Iron Battery Questions.

New Thread.


BB