Batteries on the way

[inetdog]

No issues so far. Actually, a large floor sander, that pulls more than 7KW (the contractors 8KW genset would not run it) ran off the inverter all day, for 2 days, flattening the batteries. Solar was only about 2.4KW rest came out of the batteries. Running the microwave, toaster, hair dryer, has all been pretty transparent. We do get a flicker sometimes when the fridge kicks on, but I think that is more inverter response, than battery resistance.

Glad to hear that part of the experience is still looking good. I have quite a few questions, hoping that you either have the answers or will have time to make the appropriate measurements and calculations once things settle down.

Have you measured the battery voltage with heavy load on and off at various SOC levels (as a way of estimating the effective internal resistance for those conditions)?
Since you already had to adjust things like the LVCO of the inverter to accomodate the large delta-V between high and low SOC, are you counting on that to also allow for a higher voltage drop under load?
Are you anywhere close to the low operating voltage limit of the inverter? (This would clearly be more of a problem in a lower voltage installation or with a less conservatively designed inverter.)
When looking into charge and discharge efficiency have you just been looking at the amp balance, or have you adjusted for the fact (which makes the numbers even worse) that the amps pulled from the batteries per watt of AC delivered will be higher both as the cell open circuit voltage decreases and as energy is dissipated in the internal resistance of the batteries?

All the best for the New Year.

--Dave

[Mike90250]

......... What I am really curious about is the high internal resistance issues of NiFe and what will happen when you load them heavily on the inverter. I think you know where I am going with this. Let me know if the inverter trips off-line.

No issues so far. Actually, a large floor sander, that pulls more than 7KW (the contractors 8KW genset would not run it) ran off the inverter all day, for 2 days, flattening the batteries. Solar was only about 2.4KW rest came out of the batteries. Running the microwave, toaster, hair dryer, has all been pretty transparent. We do get a flicker sometimes when the fridge kicks on, but I think that is more inverter response, than battery resistance.

It is really easy to do all you have to do is search: Most damning evidence is the owner John D'Angelo was sentenced to two-years prison. He killed a young boy with his products:

Company President Sentenced to Jail for CPSC Violations

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) announced today that John D'Angelo, owner and president of Utility Free Inc., a Colorado-based distributor of alternative energy products, was sentenced to nearly two years in jail for violating two laws enforced by CPSC. Mr. D'Angelo pled guilty to 15 counts of improperly shipping hazardous substances, including a highly corrosive, clear electrolyte solution. In December 1993, 15-year-old Justin Pulliam mistook the solution for water because Mr. D'Angelo had shipped it in a reused plastic one-gallon milk container that lacked appropriate warnings. The teenager drank it and died two weeks later from severe internal injuries.

The Federal Hazardous Substances Act prohibits the shipment of hazardous substances in reused food containers and without proper warning labels that contain safety information. The Poison Prevention Packaging Act requires that certain chemicals be marketed in child-resistant packaging. Mr. D'Angelo violated both laws. His sentence is the longest jail time ever imposed for violations of laws enforced by CPSC.

more....

Mr D'Angelo did not kill anyone nor was he arrested on any such charges. All his charges where misdemeanors (a fact). People rarely if ever go to jail for misdemeanors (another fact). The 15 year old committed suicide (for fact verification on that read the local police report which no one seems to know about or call his dealer at the time who stored the electrolyte in his garage, Peter, who's son was there telling the man not to drink electrolyte from the container once then Justin drank from the container a little later. The container had a 4" label (I have a copy if you want to see it) on it with a very large skull and crossbones on the label. No other labels where on the container that indicated it was a "milk carton". In fact it was a recycled distilled water container! Mr D'Angelo was the scapegoat for the Federal government. I think you need to dig a little deeper into the TRUE facts of the case. He was sentenced to misdemeanors and was NEVER charged with killing anyone. As far as lacking appropriate "warnings" as this press release states the one gallon jug was labeled clearly with a skull and cross bones indicating that the contents where poison. What 15 years old would not know this? Anyway what does this have to do with this thread about nickel iron batteries and questions that you can't seem to answer?

As usually Russ you never really answer any questions you are asked. Who is pissed at beutilityfree? What is the manufactures warranty? Who are you really. Just someone that wants to bring up crap that has nothing to do with this thread?

Have a very happy new year!

[Sunking]

Please post a list of all the "people that are pissed at beutiltyfree"

It is really easy to do all you have to do is search: Most damning evidence is the owner John D'Angelo was sentenced to two-years prison. He killed a young boy with his products:

Company President Sentenced to Jail for CPSC Violations

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) announced today that John D'Angelo, owner and president of Utility Free Inc., a Colorado-based distributor of alternative energy products, was sentenced to nearly two years in jail for violating two laws enforced by CPSC. Mr. D'Angelo pled guilty to 15 counts of improperly shipping hazardous substances, including a highly corrosive, clear electrolyte solution. In December 1993, 15-year-old Justin Pulliam mistook the solution for water because Mr. D'Angelo had shipped it in a reused plastic one-gallon milk container that lacked appropriate warnings. The teenager drank it and died two weeks later from severe internal injuries.

The Federal Hazardous Substances Act prohibits the shipment of hazardous substances in reused food containers and without proper warning labels that contain safety information. The Poison Prevention Packaging Act requires that certain chemicals be marketed in child-resistant packaging. Mr. D'Angelo violated both laws. His sentence is the longest jail time ever imposed for violations of laws enforced by CPSC.

more....

Where is the warranty Russ

Tell us why so many people are pissed at beutılityfree then!

You managed to skip over that point in your blather.

That is a poınt to always watch out for - when a party doen't want you to see X they talk about Y real loud and quickly.

I have read this whole thread that begins with "batteries on the way" and I do not see that "people" are "pissed at beutilityfree" but that the person who originally started this thread, Mike, has questions about his nickel iron battery bank. Many people have chimed in with their "advice" that may or may not be good.

Please post a list of all the "people that are pissed at beutiltyfree" and please tell me why they are pissed off? Concrete examples only please with real quotes as to why they are "pissed off" and not just your opinion. I bet I will know that outcome.

You wrote on post #49 the following: "The warranty comes from the factory anyway." I have politely asked you twice to provide this warranty to us either verbally or post a document yet you seem to constantly avoid a concrete answer. Why? For the third time Russ what is the factory warranty? I am sure everyone here would like to know. Hey, Bill Blake do you know what the Changhong factory warranty is since you certainly knew and posted the BeUtilityFree warranty in its entirety. You seem to be a wealth of information.

Seems to me "you skip over that point in your (own) blather" Russ. What is the real problem?

[russ]

Tell us why so many people are pissed at beutılityfree then!

You managed to skip over that point in your blather.

That is a poınt to always watch out for - when a party doen't want you to see X they talk about Y real loud and quickly.

If a supplier gives the customer a written guarantee/warranty with explicit conditions, they may or may not be depending on the manufacturer's warranty to back them up. They might also be earning such an enormous profit that they can afford to do some replacements on their own. Of they may put in such strict conditions that the warranty is worthless. The only way to tell is to read the fine print.
Many manufacturers state in their literature that defective items should be returned directly to them rather than to the store where purchased, but most large stores will still take the product back from you and give you a replacement. Then they either fight it out with the manufacturer or sell the defective unit to the next person who comes along.

You are 100% correct in your reply to Russ.

Batteries are not like most products in the market. They can be used gently used that will give normally give them maximum life or totally abused shortening their life so therefore have to have a unique warranty as I see it.

What is your problem russ?

Beutilityfree - isn't that the party some members are pissed at for blowing BS at them?

Beutilityfree or any other supplier does not carry the guarantee - they will only guarantee what the manufacturer backs them up on - otherwise they are fools.

Your local hardware store does not carry a guarantee - that goes back to GE or Whirlpool or whoever the manufacturer was.

BeUtilityFree has a track record that no one else can match when it comes to the nickel iron battery sales or knowledge in the USA. Russ that is a simple fact and that is not BS.

All I asked of you and you cannot seem to provde either verbally or in writing, is what is the manufacture's (Changhong) warranty?

I know that the reason why BeUtilityFree continues to give the best warranty in the battery industry (lead acid or otherwise that I am aware of) is becuase they have had the most experinece with the Chinese nickel iron battery. In fact that works to the customers advantage as I see it.Many warranties are worthless and are only as good as the company that gives it. BeUtilityFree has been around longer than any other company selling nickel iron batteries in the USA. Yes, their warranty carries certain stipulations,but the company would be a fool NOT TO have certain simulations otherwise customers would take advantage of the company. To me that is smart, not dumb if a company wants to stay in business.

[inetdog]

Beutilityfree - isn't that the party some members are pissed at for blowing BS at them?

Beutilityfree or any other supplier does not carry the guarantee - they will only guarantee what the manufacturer backs them up on - otherwise they are fools.

Your local hardware store does not carry a guarantee - that goes back to GE or Whirlpool or whoever the manufacturer was.

If a supplier gives the customer a written guarantee/warranty with explicit conditions, they may or may not be depending on the manufacturer's warranty to back them up. They might also be earning such an enormous profit that they can afford to do some replacements on their own. Of they may put in such strict conditions that the warranty is worthless. The only way to tell is to read the fine print.
Many manufacturers state in their literature that defective items should be returned directly to them rather than to the store where purchased, but most large stores will still take the product back from you and give you a replacement. Then they either fight it out with the manufacturer or sell the defective unit to the next person who comes along.

[russ]

Beutilityfree - isn't that the party some members are pissed at for blowing BS at them?

Beutilityfree or any other supplier does not carry the guarantee - they will only guarantee what the manufacturer backs them up on - otherwise they are fools.

Your local hardware store does not carry a guarantee - that goes back to GE or Whirlpool or whoever the manufacturer was.

Factory Warranty?

Mike - You might try dealing with the factory - they can check up on problems their distributor has as well as anyone - they should be aware.

The warranty comes from the factory anyway.

Russ,

Please share with us the details of the "factory" warranty or provide us with a PDF attachment so we can all see what you are talking about. I have never seen a factory warranty from any of the Chinese manufactures, but I have seen and read warranties from BeUtilityFree which has the best warranty of anyone selling nickel iron batteries. BeUtilityFree has also had the most experience in selling China nickel iron cells in the USA. After all they have been importing the cells from China for over 19 years (since 1995). I have read Iron Edison warranty which basically sucks (2 year warranty last I read), regarding Zapp works I have never seen a written warranty from them and on their web site they sate "With proper maintenance a two-year warranty is provided." what ever that means.

Dealing directly with the factory usually gets most people no where because they (the factory) expects the customer to take their questions directly to the company that sold you the cells. I suggest you stay in contact the company you bought the cells from.

Thanks!

[inetdog]

Hi every one today i want to say that Batteries involve the flow of electricity from one metal to another. What happens to these metals to cause the batteries to, eventually, stop working?

1. The metals fall off the plates and will not let the electrons take their trip outside the battery through the wires.
2. The surface of the metals gets covered with all sorts of bad stuff that the electrons don't like.
3. The chemicals in the water that carry the electrons on the half of their trip that is inside the battery go away, as does the electrolyte in the case of AGM batteries.
4. The interior of the metals gets filled up / mixed with other nasty stuff which does not stay on the surface, and once again the electrons do not like that.

Those are some reasons for rechargeable batteries.
For non-rechargeable batteries, the chemicals which carry the electrons from one metal to the other get used up in chemical reactions, and there is no more left, even if there are still metals left.

And actually, some types of batteries do not even use metals for one or both of their electrodes. But the principles remain the same.

[Mike90250]

Hi every one today i want to say that Batteries involve the flow of electricity from one metal to another. What happens to these metals to cause the batteries to, eventually, stop working?

the daily trip back and forth makes the atoms tired and the eventually fall to the floor

[Max0]

Hi every one today i want to say that Batteries involve the flow of electricity from one metal to another. What happens to these metals to cause the batteries to, eventually, stop working?
about us

[russ]

Mike - You might try dealing with the factory - they can check up on problems their distributor has as well as anyone - they should be aware.

The warranty comes from the factory anyway.