Batteries on the way

[Sundetective]

Mike honestly I was hoping things would have worked out better for you and prove me wrong about NiFe batteries. .

I feel badly as well but all may not be lost. There may have been a problem with the electrolyte chemicals because Beutilityfree started double shipping chemicals to customers.
For the first time that I know of China (Changhong) is no longer including the chemicals with your
Beutilityfree order as of a recent email from Beutilityfree to a Ni-Fe fanboy and as of John's mouth in our
Survival Monkey forum tango involving John, Brandon Williams and old Bill.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_nf=3&gs_mss=John%20D'Angelo%20S&tok=LuphWUExouqj6kiv8AtM6A&pq=john%20d'angelo%20beutilityfree&cp=29&gs_id=40&xhr=t&q=John%20D'Angelo%20Survival%20Monkey&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=John+D'Angelo+Survival+Monkey&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=2eb501efc61e67f9&bpcl=35466521&biw=1024&bih=533

Now this makes no sense to me since the chemicals made in China are known to be the cheapest by far

What possible reason is there to start personally messing with the Ni-Fe chemicals again here in the USA when China always handled it inside the crates right to your door?

After the carbonate tests Mike can let me know what he wants to try.
I have a Certified Reagent Grade supplier of the Lithium Hydroxide in hard containers at a very good price
that I will pass on to Mike off list if he needs it.

However that also voids the Nickels Iron Battery Warranty by not buying the electrolyte from
John D'Angelo.

Otherwise I don't wish to push the subject. To me it's almost as bad as a funeral and it bums me out now.

Bill Blake

Mod note - Various items naming people and crimes have been removed - If you are interested just search John D'Angelo beutilityfree.

If complaints are to be made just state a position and drop the topic- this has gone on and on and there is no reason for the site to take any exposure to legal action over the topic. I have no desire to do the research to support a position on the topic.

[Sunking]

Mike honestly I was hoping things would have worked out better for you and prove me wrong about NiFe batteries. .

[Sundetective]

They are low in the mornings . I don't think they are "under charged", many amps are being put into them, and not many being taken out. I finally got the "carbonate test kit" and will have to try it out next weekend. Ran into too many chores this weekend.

If it's just some fine tuning still needed, I'll be OK, if it's a lieing sack of sales pitch, with no basis in reality, then not so rosy.

Mike,

Have you read your Nickel Iron Battery Warranty closely?

Appendix B

15 Year Limited Warranty

BeUtilityFree, Inc warrants both the cells against material and workmanship and battery
capacity.

Material and workmanship warranty:

BeUtilityFree™, Inc. warrants to the original user and is non-transferable and that all
new nickel iron pocket plate cells models will be free from defects in material and or
workmanship (not just being discharged) within the replacement period stated will be
replaced free of charge. for (15) fifteen years (180 months) after placed in service. User
should immediately report any possible defects in writing to BeUtilityFree™, Inc.

Battery capacity warranty:

We warranty the battery to produce a minimum of 80% of its rated battery capacity at a
C20 rate for the first 10 years in service as tested by industry battery testing methods.

Warranty Period Workmanship
Free replacement: 1st 60 months
Pro-rated: 120 months after the 1st 60 months
Warranty inclusions and exclusions
All batteries claimed to be defective must be returned to BeUtilityFree™, or the closest
dealer for evaluation.

During the first year from date of shipment delivery to customers
address we will pay for return shipping, but not shipping to BUF, if cell(s) are found to be
defective.

After first year, customer pays all shipping expenses both ways.

Allow up to
2-4 weeks for examination of batteries that are in question if they are returned to us. No
replacement cells will be sent unless bad cells are received first. No exceptions.

If you
need to send all the cells back to us then send the cells back to us in the original wood
crate that the cells came in. or construct replacement boxes of similar construction.
BeUtilityFree is not responsible for installation, removal of cells, labor costs of removal
and replacement, electrical test or any kind, loss of time, loss of equipment use,
recharging and charging cell(s), and another costs related to be considered as incidental
or consequential damages.

The following conditions must be met or guarantee is NULL and VOID:

1. The batteries are used in a home power system or approved system by
BeUtilityFree™, Inc. engineering department.
2. Battery bank should not be installed in an environment that exceeds 100 F° for
extended periods of time, such as a dark box in the sun.

3. The batteries are handled, stored and installed in accordance with the instructions
shipped with the batteries.

Proper maintenance records should be kept regarding
temperatures; specific gravity, cell voltages, and battery carbonate content on a yearly
basis.

4. Electrolyte level must be maintained at the recommended level at all times. Only
distilled or de-ionized water can be used to replace fluid level. Rainwater, city tap
water, well water or seawater will void warranty.
5. Applies only to original owner and does not cover any battery that must be repaired or
replaced due to misuse, accidents, negligence, tampering, or acts of God.
6. Battery terminals and intercell connectors must be tight to assure no arcing occurs
during heavy charging and discharging of battery.

7. If battery is found to be contaminated with carbonate during a claim then the claim will
not be honored.

It is the client’s responsibility to monitor the electrolyte carbon
content.

9. The replacement electrolyte bought from us be used when periodic renewal electrolyte
as necessary.

10. Cells have to be flushed with distilled water or water approved by us.

11) The operator of the battery bank must keep reasonable records of use and
maintenance.

Failure to monitor watering intervals, discharges and full recharges may
void the warranty.

12) All battery systems installed in renewable energy systems or electrical vehicle
systems must have an Ah meter device installed in accordance with the manufacturers
installation instructions.

All battery Ah meters must be “synchronized” periodically to
match the rated battery capacity. No constant voltage controllers are allowed.

13) The battery must be charged on a properly sized charging system capable of
delivering a minimum of 40% of its rated C5 Ah charge rate. The “charging system” is
the total sum of all charging sources.

14) The total 100% depth of discharge of your battery bank do not exceed 1000 times
total to an end voltage of 1.0 VPC. If cells taken below 1.0 VPC then warranty is void.

Limited warranty does not apply due to the following:

1. Fluid level not maintained in cell(s) either by over or under watering.
2. Damage from shipping to or from the original owner.
3. Freezing of cells due to low specific gravity.
4. Damage from fire or explosions or any other acts of god
5. Addition of any other chemical besides chemicals purchased from BeUtilityFree, Inc
or approved supplier by BeUtilityFree.
6. Water that is not either distilled or de-ionized and over 10 PPM of TDS.
7. Over or undersized sized battery bank as well as improperly sized for the intended
application.
8. Damaged cases from temperature extremes.

9. Improper installation.
10. Bad electrical connections such as lose nuts or wires or improper wire sizes for
application.
11. Corroded, rusty or improper hardware.
12. Breakage caused by dropping cell or sharp blows to cell.

13. Insufficient charging by charging source.

14. Tampering with wording or manufacturing codes the cell or tampering with cell itself
in any way.
15. Cracked, broken, or cracked cell cases not caused by manufacturing defect.
16. Freezing of cells due to low specific gravity.

17. Your warranty does not cover cell replacement caused by loss of battery capacity due
to carbonated electrolyte. If we find this to be the case, we give you the option of us
changing electrolyte with new electrolyte and testing them.

18. Only cells sold in North America
19. Float purchased from another company and used in the cells

The registration form is filled out within (30) thirty days of receiving batteries and
sent to:
Attn: Customer Service
BeUtilityFree™, Inc.

You can also scan and email the filled out form in PDF format to

If the warranty paperwork is NOT filled out and sent in than your cells will
not be covered under the warranty terms.
NO EXCEPTIONS!

How to obtain warranty service:
All returns must be followed by a Return Authorization Number (RAN) issued by
BeUtilityFree™, Inc. in writing to the customer service department. Customer is
responsible for costs and proper packaging of cell(s). All cells must be returned to us
before guarantee is honored. Shipping instructions will be sent with the RAN. Proof of
purchase (invoice) must be presented at time filing for an RAN
If defective during the first year we will replace free of charge including labor, freight
and and parts replaced with one of equal amp hour battery capacity and we will endeavor
to replace with the physical size cell. The second through the fifteen years will be
warranted on a pro-rated basis.
BeUtilityFree, Inc

The pro-ration formula is:
Credit = current purchase price ($XXX) X number of months of service ÷ Warranty
period

Because cell dimension can change from year to year we cannot guarantee that the
replacement cell(s) will be the same size as the cell)s) that you originally bought. Usually
the older the cells are more likely the cell could be a different dimension. The amp hour
cell capacity shall be the same as the original or as close as we can get should the cell AH
capacities not be matched exactly.
Packaging requirements
Package must be packaged according to shipper’s standard practices for the weight of the
cell. Please use proper packing material that will not crush under the weight of the cell.
We suggest bubble wrap as the best packing material.
Limitations of Warranty
BeUtilityFree makes no express warranties with respect to its to its cells sold other than
the limited warranty stated in this warranty
Disclaimer of consequential damages
BeUtilityFree, Inc shall not be responsible for any liability caused by incidental or
consequential damages caused by operation of the nickel iron cells, from the sale of this
product or relating to the use of this product.
Application pertaining to State Laws
This warranty gives the original owner specific legal rights and you may also have other
rights that may vary on a state by state basis.
This area intentionally left blank
BeUtilityFree, Inc

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is another version of the same Warranty but it won't copy for some reason.
I will have to try a desktop that is set-up to deal with tricky stuff.

It has additions like items related to your Ah meter.

"If your battery history setting are deleted or reset then warranty is void".

So be careful with your printed records and don't accidentally reset your Ah meter
or your out of the John Mario D'Angelo
Shrine.

If you get some carbonate problems same deal.
Your out of the Shrine.

Charging Less than 40% of C5 ... well I'll let Sunking tell you.

Stephen over at Zapp Works said that they figured out a way to reverse recent
carbonation and he was telling his customers all about it. Then this year they wrote it out
of their instructions. The sly devils. Changhong Batteries (Your Company) is also
'writing some things out' this year. Old Bill won't do you dat way

Based on some things that John Mario said recently (in writing of course) I think
that I figured out what may have happened to your Ni-Fe Cells.
(Next time.)

Bill Blake

[Mike90250]

How is the NiFe thing working out for you?

They are low in the mornings . I don't think they are "under charged", many amps are being put into them, and not many being taken out. I finally got the "carbonate test kit" and will have to try it out next weekend. Ran into too many chores this weekend.

If it's just some fine tuning still needed, I'll be OK, if it's a lieing sack of sales pitch, with no basis in reality, then not so rosy.

[Sunking]

So Mike I ask again.

How is the NiFe thing working out for you?

[Mike90250]

Mike, what about one of those inexpensive stainless steel meat thermometers to get some internal electrolyte temperature readings.
Going by what Changhong Battery Co. has documented recently and also in the past - eliminating most of your watering nightmare is
never going to happen. Especially with YOUR Changhong NF700-S Cells ... IN PARTICULAR.

However I feel that we can cut the amount of distilled water and the number of sweet dollars flying out of your hands back a bit.

I'm positive that we can cut your time and the 'Nightmare Factor' back a whole Lot. As in 100% sure.......

the batteries are not getting warm at all, my normal solar charge current is about 30A, into a 800ah battery. they do bubble like mad above 55V or so.

If you want, contact me off list, about cutting my nightmare factor back.

[Sundetective]

I checked the electrolyte temp. in my 700 a/h cells during a charge to 16.5 v. This is a 12 v. bank. I used the glass thermometer provided by ChangHong, and the readings were very close to room temp. during that charge. I have done this several times with the same results. I also placed the palm of my hand on the sides of the cells and could tell they were room temperature. Or, so close that my skin contact could not discern any difference.

Thanks Steve and also thanks for the 3 threads that you started in Eric's forum back in 2011.
A friend of mine has all the wisdom archived and categorized as usual.
It's a lot different than the Ni-Fe batteries that I bought 40 years ago but you know what they say
in Russia. The little cells that I had were made in Russia and heated up just fine.

It was disappointing (in Eric's forum) that powerfarmer got everybody excited about his Zapp Works
(rebuilt Edison) Ni-Fe Cells only to break his word on finishing up on a little of the story.

The Changhong Cells were unfortunately not designed for such refresh tricks so until someone
with a little common sense comes along old Bill still loves the technology but has to say
forget the Chinese Ni-Fe versions. They can do much better.
Edison did much better for the US Navy during WWI by adding the air powered Fill AND Drain feature.

The US Navy didn't play. Their giant Lead Acid batteries were also capable of the REFRESH Treatment
the same as their Nickel Iron Cells were.
They had drills to use the Ni-Fe cells as CO2 Scrubbers to keep the men alive under the sea for up to
100 days in an emergency. Then technicians would 'Refresh" the Ni-Fe cells when the Captain said to.

You see we have all been subjected to a terrible 'veneer of knowledge campaign'
with the Ni-Fe game as I have said many times.

It's mostly all been about Lies, omissions and that sales buck. They know is why they fear so bad.
The actual truth is NOT BAD but MUST be faced up to for a most successful technology.

I wrote a bit about the US Navy history and gave references in another forum under the handle of BillBlake.
This was my first Solar forum (here) and the Sundetective bit was a bit of a Lark.

The Thread Title is: 'Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer'.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=Nickel+Iron+(Ni-Fe)+Battery+Life+Cycle+Chart+..+from+the+Manufacturer&oq=Nickel+Iron+(Ni-Fe)+Battery+Life+Cycle+Chart+..+from+the+Manufacturer&gs_l=hp.12...5140.5140.0.12906.1.1.0.0.0.0.108.108.0j1.1.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.bBM2HV8SxxM&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=8e97703fe6d1cdc8&bpcl=35466521&biw=1024&bih=533

All that Hank and Stephen at Zapp Works ever did was read Mr. Edison's
extremely detailed instructions on exactly how to refresh the Nickel Iron Battery Elements.

It's a testament to the trends in our society that the wisdom from Mr. Edison (and his gang)
seems to have become Lost to 99.99% of the population for over 100 years.

With the mouth that a few of them out there have it's no wonder that some guys that do know
a little something can hate like hell telling many times.
Sometimes they get drawn out for a dab or two which is real nice and appreciated.


Bill Blake

[SteveC]

Mike, can you tell us a little about what charging Voltages that you are using. Have you taken any
internal electrolyte temperatures at various times including different stages of charging?



Bill Blake

I checked the electrolyte temp. in my 700 a/h cells during a charge to 16.5 v. This is a 12 v. bank. I used the glass thermometer provided by ChangHong, and the readings were very close to room temp. during that charge. I have done this several times with the same results. I also placed the palm of my hand on the sides of the cells and could tell they were room temperature. Or, so close that my skin contact could not discern any difference.

[Sundetective]

Mike, can you tell us a little about what charging Voltages that you are using. Have you taken any
internal electrolyte temperatures at various times including different stages of charging?

There are some things that we may be able to try but it takes working with the numbers that only you
would know.

As you may suspect sometimes answers can be cheap and sometimes not. You may need to figure
what this watering problem will run in time and money as you move in and pump up the volume.

If it gets too tough you might be the perfect guy to unleash brand new thinking to an old tired game.

10 / 21 / 12

Bill Blake

Mike, what about one of those inexpensive stainless steel meat thermometers to get some internal electrolyte temperature readings.
Going by what Changhong Battery Co. has documented recently and also in the past - eliminating most of your watering nightmare is
never going to happen. Especially with YOUR Changhong NF700-S Cells ... IN PARTICULAR.

However I feel that we can cut the amount of distilled water and the number of sweet dollars flying out of your hands back a bit.

I'm positive that we can cut your time and the 'Nightmare Factor' back a whole Lot. As in 100% sure.

Whether it's now or $ hundreds of dollars and many additional hours of intense, sweaty aggravation from now .....
Lord willing old Bill will just be waiting on you.

Then we can 'Roll up our sleeves' (so to say) on the badboy problem - and make something happen right then and right there.


Bill Blake

[Sundetective]

We may have to 'LeRoy' the problem.

7 Month update.

This last week, was refill time. Becasue of the need to exclude Co2 from the cells, the vent & fill hole, has a little check valve in it, and it was a real pain to bypass it and refill. Cells were not quite yet down to the FILL---- indicator line, but each took about 1/2 gallon of distilled, to top them off. Bank seemed fine, but not under any heavy load yet. I've set the absorb time back again, to reduce gassing, we'll see how it goes.

Their size is roughly a bit larger than L-16's

House permit is imminent, and in 6 months, I hope to be living off the batteries at night.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2011[/ATTACH]

solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
Setting up batteries http://tinyurl.com/LMR-NiFe

gear :
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV || || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

Mike, can you tell us a little about what charging Voltages that you are using. Have you taken any
internal electrolyte temperatures at various times including different stages of charging?

There are some things that we may be able to try but it takes working with the numbers that only you
would know.

As you may suspect sometimes answers can be cheap and sometimes not. You may need to figure
what this watering problem will run in time and money as you move in and pump up the volume.

If it gets too tough you might be the perfect guy to unleash brand new thinking to an old tired game.

10 / 21 / 12

Bill Blake

[Mike90250]

7 Month update.

This last week, was refill time. Becasue of the need to exclude Co2 from the cells, the vent & fill hole, has a little check valve in it, and it was a real pain to bypass it and refill. Cells were not quite yet down to the FILL---- indicator line, but each took about 1/2 gallon of distilled, to top them off. Bank seemed fine, but not under any heavy load yet. I've set the absorb time back again, to reduce gassing, we'll see how it goes.

Their size is roughly a bit larger than L-16's

House permit is imminent, and in 6 months, I hope to be living off the batteries at night.

battery_bank_install.jpg

solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
Setting up batteries http://tinyurl.com/LMR-NiFe

gear :
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV || || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

[Mike90250]

short update

Well, just got back, and I've decided that if I'm to continue with everything, I need either more vacation days, or start a petition to increase days from 24 hours, to 36 hours. There is just not enough time to do everything !

Batteries are placed and filled. Connecting and charging will have to happen "later". I discovered that it takes 8 hours for the electrolyte to cool down from nearly boiling, to 90F before pumping into the cells. I went and bought 6 more buckets, so I could make larger batches, and thought I could increase the process to 11 batteries at a time. Last batch, I bought bags of ice, and packed around the buckets to cool them in 4 hours instead of 8.

Photos and write up in a day or two. Still catching up at work, and with 900 emails at home first. My vacation was filled with "working" 7am - 9pm every day. I'm beat!
Mike

[Mike90250]

Yes, I will be visiting my batterys mid week, and getting them commissioned ! I'll be offline for a week, till I get back to the internet. (It looks like the requirements to install phone line or cable runs, will be MORE than for electric !!) So for the short term, I'll have to go with a 3g wifi hotspot next year. 4g may never arrive there, fut friends with 'droid phones report 3g on site.
Updates will arrive as avaiable .

[john p]

Its a pity this thread had taken a few bad turns.
I hope Mike does not stop giving us information on his new battery set up. Im sure im not the only one that is interested to read an honest report from him.. I want to learn how it goes and what setting up problems he encounters.
I dont care about how antiquated the battery types are or why they dont still make them in USA..What we want to know is how the ones that are made are going to perform..
Please Mike continue this thread for a loooong time.

[Sunking]

It seems when a product comes along and upsets the "status quo" i.e the lead acid world, you get called all sorts of things. The train has left gate and there is no stopping it now and for years to come.

BeUtilityFree, Inc

You are not talking to Joe Ignorant Public. I have been working with Batteries likely more years than you have been alive. There is nothing new about Edison's NiFe battery developed in 1901 for the Electric Vehicle industry. They were antiquated by an earlier design by a Sweed Waldemar Jungner who invented the NiCd battery in 1899. The last US manufacture quit making NiFe in 1975.