US Gov't report on the use of Ni-Fe cells in vehicles

[Sunking]

Sunking - that is a detailed explanation of what I said.

I could care less if the EV's of 100 years back used NiFe - that is all they had and cars were just a rich man's toy.

Russ it was just my ironic humor.

[russ]

But you are wrong Russ. All EV's used NiFe batteries in the early 1900's. They failed because of the energy density, weight, and high internal resistance. The EV's could only go around 10 to 20 miles on a charge and were quite slow and could not climb relatively shallow terrain.

Sunking - that is a detailed explanation of what I said.

I could care less if the EV's of 100 years back used NiFe - that is all they had and cars were just a rich man's toy.

[Sunking]

Thanks for the calcs, you are right on when using your assumptions. The govt used a couple different scenarios, including with and without regenerative braking. Higher C batteries will allow for even more regen.

I understand that and I apologize for beating up on you. But everything you talk about is already done using LFP technology, and it can do it better and cheaper. The new LFP coming out can be completely discharged, high C & D rates, 10,000 cycle life, and roughly 11 times the energy density at less wh cost than NiFe. The final nail with respect to EV's is the Lithium technology will only get better and less expensive as it is in it's infancy stage of development. NiFe is mature and has gone as far as it can.

Kind of like a CRT display. LED's and Plasma run laps around CRT and they are already better than CRT and getting better and cheaper every day.

I do see two applications for NiFe but they have been used in those industries for decades; Rail Road Signal lights, and Mining emergency lighting.

Peace

[Sunking]

Check out Paul talk about his battery pack. Battery swap stations are cool, too.

Yes I have discussed battery modules many times on an EV forum and it has been discussed in great detail, but has a huge flaw and a long way off from ever being applicable. It would require all EV manufactures to standardize battery packages. Not just one but several configurations. Something like small, medium, and large to accommodate different size and weight vehicles.

Did you know there used to be a network of EV charging stations way back in the 1900's???

I am not aware of any charging stations in the USA at that time period, but I do know in 1896 General Electric (Edison's Car Company) sold EV's and proposed a battery exchange/swap program to be ran by Hartford Electric Light and Power where users paid a monthly fee based on mileage for swap exchange program and was provided from 1910 to 1924 using Edison's NiFe battery. It was operated in the NYC metro area for delivery trucks.

There was a similar service provided in Chicago beginning in 1917. I am also aware the first Taxi service were electric cars in NYC and the vehicles were made by Electric Carriage and Wagon out of Philly.

Yes history is repeating itself some what, but because the technology now allows it. EV were king of the road from the 1890' up until the mid 20's. What did them in was the lack of a battery, improvements in ICE vehicles, the rapid build out of petroleum infrastructure, (non government funded) and Henry Ford's Model T.

Don't get me wrong Iron Bran, I am a huge fan of EV's. They are my hobby on a small scale albeit golf carts. I have two of them and 1 I modify to race. I have a Fairview NEV with a modified controller that allows me about 40 MPH and fully street legal on roads with 35 MPH or less speed limits. I aslo have an EZ-GO TXT series cart completely modifired with 650 amp controller, 48 volt LFP battery, and a 12 Kw racing motor. It only goes 35 MPH, but it only takes 5 feet to accelerate to 35 MPH and will climb a tree. I am fixing to rip all that out and upgrade to 72 volt battery. 500 amp controoler, and a WARP 9 Series DC motor. That should get me a 50 MPH rubber burning, wheelie popping golf cart.

[Iron Bran]

Freedom Anxiety (sounds better than Freedom Fries)

Thanks for the calcs, you are right on when using your assumptions. The govt used a couple different scenarios, including with and without regenerative braking. Higher C batteries will allow for even more regen.



Projected Ranges.jpg

So here would be a real life example with the following assumptions EV efficiency 200 Wh/mile, 300 Kg battery.

• Expected NiFe range = [30 Wh/Kg * 300 Kg] / 200 Wh/mile = 45 miles

• Expected LiFePO4 range = [414 Wh/Kg * 300 Kg] / 200 Wh/mile = 600 miles

[Iron Bran]

Info on C5 batts

I just posted the report so people could read it. Its from 1980-something. Like a blast from the past, man!

Check out Paul talk about his battery pack. Battery swap stations are cool, too. "Its not range anxiety, its freedom anxiety" Renault and some others are already on board, testing using taxis in downtown areas. How this addresses range / freedom anxiety, I dont know. Did you know there used to be a network of EV charging stations way back in the 1900's??? Now we are working on the exact same thing. Its like history repeating itself...

You are generally right about the density, so don't freak out.

This is just information for you to enjoy reading. No more, no less. I enjoy the open exchange of information. Take care!

[Sunking]

Not one manufacturer is using them and do you think they have not studied the technology.

But you are wrong Russ. All EV's used NiFe batteries in the early 1900's. They failed because of the energy density, weight, and high internal resistance. The EV's could only go around 10 to 20 miles on a charge and were quite slow and could not climb relatively shallow terrain.

Understanding Energy Density is not a hard thing to grasp if you think of it like Miles Per Gallon. With batteries Energy Density is measured watt hours per unit of weight and expressed as Wh/Kg (watt hours / kilogram) NiFe batteries energy density is around 30 Wh/Kg, Lead Acid 45 Wh/Kg. the new LiFePO4 from A123 Systems is 414 Wh/Kg. You do not have to be an Engineer to understand the lithium batteries pound for pound give you 11 times more range. Throw in the watt hour cost is roughly the same for both Litium and Nife makes it a no brainer choice. No manufacture in their right mind would use NiFe batteries in an EV. I know some DIY EV builders use NiFe, but that is only because they got them free or at salvage prices.

So here would be a real life example with the following assumptions EV efficiency 200 Wh/mile, 300 Kg battery.

• Expected NiFe range = [30 Wh/Kg * 300 Kg] / 200 Wh/mile = 45 miles

• Expected LiFePO4 range = [414 Wh/Kg * 300 Kg] / 200 Wh/mile = 600 miles

Which one would you build with, and which one would consumers want? There is one more catch. To recharge the NiFe is going to take 8 hours or more to recharge, the new LFP have a C4 charge rate which means if you have the source power can be fully recharged in 20 minutes.

There is no contest. NiFe is a mature technology with nowhere else to go. LFP batteries are an infant technology and have made 4 quantum leaps in 7 years going from an energy density of 100 Wh/Kg to over 400 Wh/Kg in 7 short years. NiFe costs are fixed by the semi-precious metal of Nickel. LFP prices have dropped 70% in 10 years of development and still going down as the manufacturing process is improved and stream lined.

So Iron Bran whether you like it or not, any public money being spent on NiFe is a waste of time and money. You cannot win this debate, the numbers are real and factual anyone can look up for themselves.

[russ]

Hi Iron Bran - Nothing wrong with you putting your viewpoint forward.

It is wrong for you to get upset because someone does not agree with your conclusions and says so.

These batteries for EV use - that is silly and you should be willing to admit the point. Not one manufacturer is using them and do you think they have not studied the technology. The one clown from EV1 means nothing.

For stationary use where the charging and discharging profile is acceptable and practical may be a niche for them.

Rather than tilt windmills I really suggest you stick with what is most practical.

Russ

[Sunking]

I am all about new technologies.

That is good embrace it.

There are a lot of people out there who have contacted me about building an American made ni-fe battery.

That is because you have vested interest, it is no secret. American companies gave up on it in the mid 70's

The Lithium Ion battery didn't even exist on the market prior to 1990. Lead-acid is not the answer, and every other chemistry has drawbacks. The more we know, the more we can selectively choose the best option for each project as the market for RE grows in the coming yrs.

Not a fact. Lithium metal primary batteries hit the market in 1975 manufactured by Exxon which had draw backs because lithium metal is toxic. Lithium Ion rechargeable secondary batteries were introduced by the former Bell Labs in 1981 in the BRICK PHONE. Lithium Ion is not toxic and approved in landfills.

NiFe was patented by Edison Electric in 1906 for use in Electric Vehicle. It failed. Edison never renewed the patent protection, and all USA production ceased in the mid 70's when Excide battery gave up.

Here are the facts. LFP is where all the research money is going by all major battery manufactures because it has the best possibilities. NiFe is a mature technology like a CRT screen where there is no where to go further. Nickel metal is expensive, energy density is low, and efficiency is low, the technology has gone as far as it can go. Lithium technology has lapped NiFe 4 times and has only got started. That is where the smart money is going.

NiFe had its place in the rail road and mining industry years ago when cost and efficiency was not an issue. But like Grandpa his time has passed and time to go enjoy retirement.

[Iron Bran]

Sweet Van

Updated EP flyer attached

eagle-picher.pdf

Sweet van

Sweet Van.jpg

[Iron Bran]

Eagle Picher battery info

The batteries referred to in this report are seen below:

Eagle Picher - 6V NiFe Battery flyer.pdf

The interesting thing about this BATTERY is that its a BATTERY, not just a CELL.

I am all about new technologies, in fact I was reading about the development of the molten Sodium Sulfur batteries by Ford / GM for the EV1. I actually just met the gentleman who designed the drivetrain on the EV1. He was excited to hear about our research with Ni-Fe.

There are a lot of people out there who have contacted me about building an American made ni-fe battery. A true New Edison battery. This would be great, right??

By sharing all this information, I am hoping to inspire people to get interested, learn from others, and come up with great new ideas. Disposable batteries are terrible in so many ways. The Lithium Ion battery didn't even exist on the market prior to 1990. Lead-acid is not the answer, and every other chemistry has drawbacks. The more we know, the more we can selectively choose the best option for each project as the market for RE grows in the coming yrs.

[Sunking]

> Are you an aggressive driver? ......

Look at that swing in the avatar, about as aggressive as they come.

With a 4 handicap I say drill baby drill. Want to play for money?

OK, it stops now. No name calling, or profiling.

No name calling on my part. Just myth busting with known facts. Iron Bran does not have the scientific facts on his side as you have pointed out Mike.

[Mike90250]

Please see attached.

[ATTACH]1094[/ATTACH]US Gov't report on the use of Ni-Fe cells in vehicles

Uh, not a good review on page 33

[Mike90250]

> Are you an aggressive driver? ......

Look at that swing in the avatar, about as aggressive as they come.

OK, it stops now. No name calling, or profiling.

Sure Sunking does not mince words, and is harsh. But you can't call names. And if I see him calling names/pigeonholing I'll tell him to stop too. (listening Sunking?)

Illegitimi non carborundum

[Sunking]

Are you an aggressive driver? I bet that you have a lot of road rage.

YOU NEED TO DISCLOSE YOU HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN NiFe and promoting for your personal gain. I use simple public information backed up with facts and numbers.

Facts:

• NiFe batteries cost per Wh are about the same as LFP @ about $0.50/wh. Fwiw 4 to 5 times higher than lead acid technology.
• NiFe energy density is 1/5 to 1/4 that of LFP. That means pound for pound it takes 4 to 5 times more weight for NiFe to equal LFP. Weight is the killer for any vehicle, it is not hard to understand.
• NiFe has high internal resistance compared to LFP and Lead Acid. What this means to a layman is it cannot be charge quickly with an efficiency average of 60%. Compared to LFP is 90% and 80% of lead acid. It also means it cannot deliver the high discharge current rates a EV needs without significant voltage drop.

I am not the only one who you have problems with you. Google your username and you pop up on many forums. In each forum you have the same critique from professionals. It is nothing new 4 U.

So if the truth hurts, deal with it.