Edison Batteries

[cornwallis]

Does anyone have any comment on these so-called "Edison" batteries that supposedly last forever (or at least for QUITE a long time)?

I've read some articles about them lasting for decades and not being susceptible to sulfation, etc.

[Sunking]

They are completely unsuitable for RE applications. So much so Edison never renewed his patent on them, and US manufactures quit making then 1975. Now only a few companies make them mainly in China.

• They cannot be charged or discharged at high rates required for RE application.
• Extremely low energy density, meaning they weigh a lot for very little energy, much heavier than lead acid.
• Very high self discharge rates of 40% per month.
• Very steep voltage drop off State of Charge voltages.
• Extremely high levels of hydrogen gassing when charge requiring special ventilation.
• And the list goes on.

[Mike90250]

and for every 50 watts you take out, it needs 90watts replaced.

But they do work, you have to change the electrolyte every 10 years too.

[isoutar]

Nickel Iron Cells work very well for solar voltaic applications.

Some people in the forum seem to be against NiFe cells and I have never been able to figure out why. Look at the other postings on nickel iron ... do a search. I posted a lot of links, prices and applications for them.

Their efficiency is a bit lower than lead acid but that efficiency remains almost constant for 20 years. I have found that mine were about 75% efficient but when you are dealing with free energy ... just throw up another panel and forget about efficiency problems. Worked for me. The sunlight generated energy is free for 20 years so why worry.

Price is not always the factor driving things. If you want maintenance free batteries that only need water with an electrolyte change every 10 years then NiFe will do it. If you want to be continuously replacing a ton of batteries every time there is a little voltage accident or controller failure then Lead acid would be a good choice.

In African solar powered schools and hospitals NGO groups building them are now moving away from lead acid because it is polluting Africa.

Ian Soutar
Vancouver Island
Canada

Does anyone have any comment on these so-called "Edison" batteries that supposedly last forever (or at least for QUITE a long time)?

I've read some articles about them lasting for decades and not being susceptible to sulfation, etc.

[Mike90250]

Lead from batteries should not pollute anything as it's easily 100% recyclable from batteries.

[Sunking]

Some people in the forum seem to be against NiFe cells and I have never been able to figure out why.

Simple economics, there are a lot better choices at 1/20th the cost.

[isoutar]

Lead is a serious issue in developing countries.

In developing countries lead is a really serious issue because there is neither recycling or garbage disposal beyond simple piles of rubble. The Non government organizations and service clubs building off grid schools and hospitals have serious issues with lead pollution.

Ian

Lead from batteries should not pollute anything as it's easily 100% recyclable from batteries.

[john p]

ISOUTAR I agree in developing countries there is limited recycling
In philippines plastics and metals mostly get recycled everything else (a billion plastic bags included )is either just thrown away some where or if a liquid just emptied on the ground
To give some idea of bad disposal there is an estimated 4,800 tones of rubbish just along the 48k (30miles)of Manila bay.
In countries like Philippines there are no such thing as recycling bins for households or business.

Lithium ion phosphate batteries are a fairly inert item to dispose of at the end of their life.

[isoutar]

So called disadvantages of NiFe greatly exaggerated.

I replied to this before ... but it failed to post ... sorry if there is a replica.

1/ Edison did not abandon his patent. I have a number of patents myself for inventions and each patent only lasts for 18 years. Of course Edison abandoned it just as I have abanoned my own early patents. The Edison Storage Battery company existed from 1910 to 1972 and was very profitable making NiFe cells. Exide (lead acid) bought them out in 1972 and took them off the market ... even though the company was still very profitable. Why?

2/ Energy density of NiFe is amost identical to lead batteries. Lead is 40 Whr / kg and NiFe varies from 30 to 50 Whr / kg depending on the design. The modern ones have the slightly higher density of 50 because they use plastic cases. Traditionally the cases were made from steel.

3/ Self discharge rate is 1% / day for Nickel Iron. Since they are charged on a daily basis this is insignificant. Lead batteries lose 20% / month when they are over 1 year old. NiFe lose 30% per month. It is not an issue in either case for RE.

4/ Steeper voltage dropoffs are seen with NiFe as compared to lead. However if you purchase an inverter designed for NiFe from KiPoint in Taiwan (very good and very cheap too) you can specify that they need to work with NiCad, Lead or NiFe. It is all a matter of design and their discharge pattern works just fine for RE.

In my house lighing I use constant current source regulators for the DC LED lighting. It allows them to burn with the same brightness from 18 volts to 40 volts. When buying a custom inverter from KiPoint I ask for it to cover 22 volts to 36 volts (that is the range from equalization to discharge).

5/ It is true that they give off hydrogen as most batteries do. NiFe gives off more hydrogen than many other batteries and this chemical property is part of the reason that they last. With lead acid you are supposed to vent off the corrosive lead acid fumes. With NiFe it is hydrogen. Not a big deal ... just vent them and the problem is solved. NiFe can be fitted with catalytic caps that re-combine the h2 and o2 back into water that drips back into the battery.

I have never worried about the hydrogen and I do smoke on occasion in my garden shed without noticing any explosions. I have a hole in the top of the shed which lets all the hydrogen out. There are no toxic or caustic SO2 or sulphuric acid fumes at least such as are given off by lead acid cells.

I consider them to be ideal for RE in my applications.

Ian Soutar
Vancouver Island.

They are completely unsuitable for RE applications. So much so Edison never renewed his patent on them, and US manufacturths quit making then 1975. Now only a few companies make them mainly in China.

• They cannot be charged or discharged at high rates required for RE application.
• Extremely low energy density, meaning they weigh a lot for very little energy, much heavier than lead acid.
• Very high self discharge rates of 40% per month.
• Very steep voltage drop off State of Charge voltages.
• Extremely high levels of hydrogen gassing when charge requiring special ventilation.
• And the list goes on.

[isoutar]

Yes ... there are people using NiFe cells for RE and are pleased with them.

The title says it all. My system has been running for a year and I am going to buy more NiFe cells in a year. But first I want to build a solar hot water system. But NiFe do work well in spite of a large number of comments from people who have never used them!

Be aware that that NiFe cells will be discussed at the upcoming Battcon World Stationary Battery Conference this month. The researchers involved were impressed enough to do a talk on their use. Peter DeMar will be speaking on the 75 to 80 year old cells that he brought back to life by following Edison's advice from a 1920 pamphlet! The Chinese did not offer the technical information to rejuvenate them.

In addition the IEEE Battery Group is working to update their North American battery standards to include NiFe. This would not be happening if the batteries were poor in any substantial way!

The dearth of comments suggesting that NiFe are very poor batteries come from a very few people who have never used them themselves. I am wondering if they have connections to the lead acid industry and are perhaps selling lead acid batteries?

Personally I have given up selling NiFe cells and just send people directly to Changhong Batteries since they will get an even lower price right from the factory. I do not want to add my markup and price them off the market. The Chinese will sell to anyone who makes an order greater than $3000. Changhong will be at the Battcon show if you want to see their products. Another company from China selling NiFe will be there too.

So lets be a bit more open minded in this forum.

Ian Soutar
Vancouver Island.
Canada.

[Sunking]

Ian me thinks you are playing games with numbers here. I know of your website, I know you either do or have sold NiFe batteries, so the bias is on you, not me as you have suggested. On your website you clearly state cost $1.5 to $6.60/kwh. I will certainly not argue the cost you post on your website as it is pretty close to today's pricing.

Like any market value/pricing is number 1 importance. Until NiFe can compete with Lead Acid Tecnologies at $0.14/wh, NiFe will always be a niche product because there are just better options at a fraction of the cost.

[Iron Bran]

Very old nickel iron batteries

If these Ni-Fe cells can be rejuvenated after 50+ years, why would you consider anything else?

Lets put the chemistry aside. Why would you keep buying replacements for anything when a substitute product exists that you never need to replace?

If these cells work after 50+ years, then they would truly be the most cost effective solution, right?

Link to restoration gallery: https://picasaweb.google.com/1103216...eat=directlink

Inside Edison 3.jpg

Inside Edison 2.jpg

Inside Edison 1.jpg

[russ]

Prepaying your electric bill for 50 years?

A rather stiff investment for most.

[isoutar]

I agree ... price was never a factor for me. Never buying another battery was it.

I was selling them for a while but sales is boring and I am back in R&D mode. Just finished a geiger counter design that is going up for sale on my site. Batteries were too big for me to deal with since I do not drive at all. This is another factor in choosing NiFe ... I paid for them to be delivered and now I will never need a battery delivery again.

Price was never the deciding factor in my case ... whatever solution I adopted the storage had to last forever and be useable by my daughter after I kicked the bucket in 25 years.

Ian

If these Ni-Fe cells can be rejuvenated after 50+ years, why would you consider anything else?

Lets put the chemistry aside. Why would you keep buying replacements for anything when a substitute product exists that you never need to replace?

If these cells work after 50+ years, then they would truly be the most cost effective solution, right?

Link to restoration gallery: https://picasaweb.google.com/1103216...eat=directlink

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[Iron Bran]

Nickel Iron media

more links, now with some video...

http://www.behance.net/gallery/A-look-inside-the-Edison-cell/1641594