Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

[Sundetective]

Indolence is a much bigger problem with Nickel Iron Batteries
than any technical problem.

It's no secret that Mr. Thomas Edison had things to say as does
Changhong Batteries in China today.

Do people listen?

A few examples.

Changhong gives the best, most concise, education about water consumption
a person could ask for.

Changhong warns you about the tragedy that will happen if you listen to some rogue,
jive salesman and also shows you the thousands of cycles that are possible
If you treat their product with care and respect.

How often you need to check the electrolyte for carbonates and other impurities
is based on how the batteries are being used according to the latest
NiFe Operators and Maintenence manual.

Saying your Nickel Iron Battery Internal Resistance problems are found mostly in the
Top Half of capacity is just working against yourself according to
Mighty 'Changhong and The Electric Indian'

Their NiFe Batteries were not designed to be run in a run-down
fashion in any way. Internal Resistance gets 4 times higher at 90% DOD
than it is at 50% DOD.

It goes on and on.

Another big problem is some people like to attack but can't seem to
find any way to attack the education getting Laid out on the peoples.

Let's do another Internet First by Old Bill and see if anyone can
Attack da man based on this hard data.

By (or before) 1915 Mr. Edison seems to have had enough with
the NiFe electrolyte.
He started to recommend that people just begin to
use a simple Battery Hydrometer on their
Edison Nickel Iron Cells starting around 300 cycles to determine when it is
necessary to empty the old solution out and put in new.

Plain and simple. NO minced words.

Why did we need 100 years for dis revelation ?

Bill Blake

[Mike90250]

A few pages back Mike indicated that at 5 years in he could decide if he chose wisely....is this the year of enlightenment?
Scott

"October 2011 Battery Prep and install" So I have a little while to go still. I am keeping the local DI water store in business

I don't sweat wondering about getting a full charge after 3 weeks of cloudy weather, they don't have anything bad (that I know of) happen if they are not regularly filled up.

[sahucker]

distilled water

I don't have any PV system, yet. But if I needed a large quantity of distilled water, was off-grid and had extra electricity available mid-day, I might use a copper still like my wife uses for essential oil production.

[inetdog]

I don't have any PV system, yet. But if I needed a large quantity of distilled water, was off-grid and had extra electricity available mid-day, I might use a copper still like my wife uses for essential oil production.

A very interesting opportunity load, and one which Mike may end up looking at if he has a surplus in the summer.

[Mike90250]

I don't have any PV system, yet. But if I needed a large quantity of distilled water, was off-grid and had extra electricity available mid-day, I might use a copper still like my wife uses for essential oil production.

I have actually bought a water still, but it's winter, and short on power till the sun comes back. But first, I'll have to figure how to store 30 -50 gallons of distilled water with out it going bad. Something that won't leach into the water, opaque to prevent algae growth, and be easy to dispense with.

[Robert1234]

I have actually bought a water still, but it's winter, and short on power till the sun comes back. But first, I'll have to figure how to store 30 -50 gallons of distilled water with out it going bad. Something that won't leach into the water, opaque to prevent algae growth, and be easy to dispense with.

Mike, Get you one of those old blue poly drums. $69 brand new & I can get them for 5-10$ a piece around here (or sometimes free) from the recycler.

[Edit]...

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-10757BLU/Drums/55-Gallon-Blue-Closed-Top-Plastic-Drum?pricode=WY582&ds_e_ad_type=pla&gadtype=pla&id=S-10757BLU&gclid=CMyuxaiB_cICFWVp7AodMVAAAA&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Robert1234]

Also...

Another thought that I just never followed up on because I get all my deionized water for free...

Take 2 gallon jugs and connect them via an overhead line.
Paint one white and the other black (as well as paint the line black).
Fill the black jug with tap water and place outside in the sun.

Theoretically, I believe one would get 1/2-3/4 gallon distilled water in the white jug in a week or so. What I'm not sure of is whether there will be any measureable organic content. Would probably have to do a COD analysis to be sure, but it should be VERY small (in the ppm range for organics).

[inetdog]

I have actually bought a water still, but it's winter, and short on power till the sun comes back. But first, I'll have to figure how to store 30 -50 gallons of distilled water with out it going bad. Something that won't leach into the water, opaque to prevent algae growth, and be easy to dispense with.

I do not think that you have to worry much about algae growth in distilled water, since there are no nutrients in it at all. But maybe the algae brought a little bag of dirt along with them? The leaching of chemicals is more of a concern, but I have no idea what those organics would do in your NiFe. The most important reason for distilled/deionized s to eliminate ionic solutes with their Na, Ca, K, etc. and their Cl, carbonates and sulfates.

[Sundetective]

Distilled shares traits with deionized.
There is an interesting article in the 1/5/15 Edition of
Ask the Experts at

https://www.circuitnet.com

Titled: Deionized Water Sample Testing.

One of the experts called it a very "hungry" acid
to get the point across.

Switching to the mylar / plastics industry it's amazing the amount
of "gas" transmission (like oxygen) that they can measure
traveling right through plastic.

You can get Mylar bags that fit the proper drums if your up
to date and slick.

Bill Blake

[DWBayless]

Going FLA

The closer I get to pulling the trigger on equipment, the more reluctant I am to drop this much cash on these. I've decided to go the more traveled path, and get FLA.

Thanks for the debate, and thanks to Bill for the links, in this, and other forums to documentation that would otherwise be awfully difficult to find.

Cheers,
Daryle

[Sunking]

The closer I get to pulling the trigger on equipment, the more reluctant I am to drop this much cash on these. I've decided to go the more traveled path, and get FLA.

Thanks for the debate, and thanks to Bill for the links, in this, and other forums to documentation that would otherwise be awfully difficult to find.

Cheers,
Daryle

Well if you are willing to drop the big bucks on NiFe, for about half the cash can get much better results with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries if you know what you are doing. Otherwise stick with FLA.

[Living Large]

Well if you are willing to drop the big bucks on NiFe, for about half the cash can get much better results with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries if you know what you are doing. Otherwise stick with FLA.

That is what I would do. They fit my application very well, with quick charging for off-grid use (relatively), light weight, low maintenance, relatively safe. Cost is not a lot more than a good bank of FLA.

[Sundetective]

Yes

Many of the stories I see about how well NiFes do, that have lasted for many years, are from people with the old, original Edison cells. Is there anything in their manufacture that would suggest that they would be particularly more robust than the current offerings from Florida, China, or Russia? What about the Zappworks battery? Are they still refurbished old cells, or are they manufacturing to Edison's specifications?

There is a dearth of real information about these cells out there, and darn it!, I'm a drunken public affairs type... (currently non-praticing) not a battery engineer.

Yes, when Mr.Edison closed his NiFe Battery factory (for going on 5 years)
the biggest problem was the Graphite was 'doing' the man.

Though it was wonderful to work with in many ways he just had to get
rid of it (and stay rid of it) to get Longevity.

In 2014 'Changhong and The Electric Indian' fessed up to using
Graphite in their NiFe Cells - the devils

Changhong Lies about graphite in their MSDS which is rare
since they normally seem to be very honorable.
It's their new Dealer in Colorado who needs to be watched so closely.

Who or what is in Florida ?

Bill Blake

[DWBayless]

Yes, when Mr.Edison closed his NiFe Battery factory (for going on 5 years)
the biggest problem was the Graphite was 'doing' the man.

Though it was wonderful to work with in many ways he just had to get
rid of it (and stay rid of it) to get Longevity.

In 2014 'Changhong and The Electric Indian' fessed up to using
Graphite in their NiFe Cells - the devils

Changhong Lies about graphite in their MSDS which is rare
since they normally seem to be very honorable.
It's their new Dealer in Colorado who needs to be watched so closely.

Who or what is in Florida ?

Bill Blake

Florida is where the Encell factory is located.

Cycle data for the Encell batteries, provided by Encell, via Iron Edison, insinuates that they will last an awful long time compared to the Changhong units, but the oldest battery they've sold is not very old yet and I'm not psychologically set up to be an early adopter - most especially when so much cash is involved. I'm going to go with FLAs, at a fraction of the price, and see what happens on the battery front in the next few years.

[Sundetective]

Florida is where the Encell factory is located.

Cycle data for the Encell batteries, provided by Encell, via Iron Edison, insinuates that they will last an awful long time compared to the Changhong units, but the oldest battery they've sold is not very old yet and I'm not psychologically set up to be an early adopter - most especially when so much cash is involved. I'm going to go with FLAs, at a fraction of the price, and see what happens on the battery front in the next few years.

Hi,

I remembered about Florida later. That will Learn me not to run out of
Tumeric caps.

After reading the Sandia National Labs / Encell Technology Report

a few times all I wanted to do is forget about those Iron Edison USA batteries.
Never saw anything so bad but I stay quiet about it
because who cares.

I hear you on the FLA Batteries.

Only smart move old Bill sees right now.
However I would want to pamper dem with a Slave Bank
behind them that doesn't
Sulfate, can take days to charge (but likes it), can last for decades and
on and on.
If generator fuel was 6 bucks or more it will begin to make perfect sense.

If you want Rolls 5000 units write me off list for a great Lead.

Bill Blake