Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

[Robert1234]

Better yet.....

That didn't answer my question so until otherwise affirmed that statement simply falls into the category of one man's opinion. Perhaps it is right. Perhaps not.

The need to tear a cell down so as to recondition it should in my opionion be a complete last resort when all else fails. I'm assuming that you have never personally opened an Edison cell up for reconditioning and tried to put it back together or I suspect you would not be so high on that "magic bath" procedure you reference. Neither have I as I have not found it necessary. An aquantainace of mine that HAS done the acid dip procedure did not get any better results in performance renewal than I am getting the way I do it. Additionally, if you open the cans up you now have the issue of putting the cans back together without leaving an anodic region for massive corrosion attack in the container (enter Zappworks with their poly shells).

I have reconditioned the bulk of my own Edison cells by a procedure that is low temperature (< 40 C), non-acidic, and non-invasive (don't take em apart) but I will state up front I have not had the chance to work with a ChangHong cell. I think it should work for them too, but truth be know I have not spoken to anyone that has a ChangHong cell that needs reconditioning. I would like to have that opporturnity to see if this new procedure will span over to the new cells if anyone out there has one they would like me to work on.

[Sundetective]

That didn't answer my question so until otherwise affirmed that statement simply falls into the category of one man's opinion. Perhaps it is right. Perhaps not.

The need to tear a cell down so as to recondition it should in my opionion be a complete last resort when all else fails. I'm assuming that you have never personally opened an Edison cell up for reconditioning and tried to put it back together or I suspect you would not be so high on that "magic bath" procedure you reference. Neither have I as I have not found it necessary. An aquantainace of mine that HAS done the acid dip procedure did not get any better results in performance renewal than I am getting the way I do it. Additionally, if you open the cans up you now have the issue of putting the cans back together without leaving an anodic region for massive corrosion attack in the container (enter Zappworks with their poly shells).

I have reconditioned the bulk of my own Edison cells by a procedure that is low temperature (< 40 C), non-acidic, and non-invasive (don't take em apart) but I will state up front I have not had the chance to work with a ChangHong cell. I think it should work for them too, but truth be know I have not spoken to anyone that has a ChangHong cell that needs reconditioning. I would like to have that opporturnity to see if this new procedure will span over to the new cells if anyone out there has one they would like me to work on.

Perhaps your friend didn't follow Edison's Patent properly. Has your friend Published or Posted the results in a forum?
Are you claiming Edison wasted his time with both Ni-Fe reconditioning Patents published in 1924?
Edison, his Lawyers and his staff were all wrong after 20 years since they published the first Ni-Fe reconditioning Patent in 1904?

Are you claiming that Zapp Works did or did not have to separate the positive and the negative electrodes for the reconditioning process?
Keep in mind that I have talked with them.

What does Zapp Works switching to plastic cases have to do with the reconditioning process other than more waging the dog?

Have you published this new in situ method of yours?

Are you referring to the reverse charging method designed for nothing but surface deposits?

Changhong publishes (right now) that their plates are welded together and are therefore not designed for the Edison reconditioning methods
Published in 1924. Do you claim Changhong says otherwise?

My Ni-Fe Cells from 40 years ago were new, Russian made batteries and didn't need any work.
When I gave them to a relative years later they were still good.
That's why I don't talk about them or make any personal claims.

Since you do claim so much personally how about posting some pictures. How many old Edison Cells do you have?
Four?

I'm afraid that unless you come up with something solid this has to be the last time that I can come up with any time for you.

Do you have any previous Posts anywhere or did you just recently appear knowing more than Edison as you claim?


Bill Blake

[Robert1234]

Blah. Blah. Blah. Once again you deflect. Never have I said Edison's routines did not work - nor have I said Zapworks doesn't use the acid dip process to regen their cells. You seem to like to put words in people's mouths.

You are correct in one respect - and I'll answer that burning question you so want to know...

I only have 24 Edison cells - a relatively modest amount from which to work. I move the spares in and out of the chain as I discover new regen techniques but it has become obvious to me that with my desired power requirements, even self-reconditioned NiFe cells will top the 7 grand mark to get the storage I want. Because of that these Ni-Fe cells will only be used as a disaster backup for LA sets. I was hoping that there might be some wisdom out there what could prove me wrong.

I could really care less if you "can come up with any time" for me. I should have followed my initial instinct and just left this thread to rot. This could have been a thread where people could share personal experiences to help each other out, but you have poisoned it like every other Ni-Fe thread out on the web with the same old "veneer of knowledge" story line you so love to tell. Yours is a regurgitation of old published information with a "shuck and jive" routine and an attack as a retort if someone's information does not fit your story line. Attempts at a discussion with you are pointless and will always be less than productive.

[Edit to Add Pics as Requested]

As I inferred above, I believe I should be through with this thread but for those that might be interested, I will depart by sharing my research setup that supports the main solar project being installed on our land in the NC mountains.



3 KWatt of Evergreen Panels



5 KWatt-Hr of Ni-Fe storage



And a little test area where I do some individual characterization studies of the cells that are the subject of this thread.


I post you these pics not just because I was challenged as Bill's opinion of me will not affect my life whatsoever. Rather I post them so that you by your knowing my equipment is real (much more real than "old Bill" would like you to believe) you also have some reason to believe my words of encouragement to you are also real.

I came searching for people interested in discussing this technology so as to improve and optimize it's utilization for our needs but unfortunately ran into the technology's "abominable noman" that wants to dominate all threads of this subject. And you wonder why people that actually have this technology just walk away from threads he gets involved with? I've worked in chemicals and chemical research all my life. Attitudes like that are a cancer to improvements.

Don't believe just the vendors nor the naysayers nor even me. While "Old Bill" is full of historical information and as such can be a good resource, he also appears to be so jaded for some reason I do not know that he is blind to the improvements in the technology. "His Excellency" Sir Thomas Edison was not a god, nor even was he the original discoverer of Ni-Fe technology. He simply was a man that studied it, improved on it, and made $$ on it as many more mortal men will continue to do after him.

I leave you with this... f you are considering the Ni-Fe storage route for power storage, seek out those that actually use the technology as their input to you will be invaluable.

[Sundetective]

Blah. Blah. Blah. Once again you deflect. Never have I said Edison's routines did not work - nor have I said Zapworks doesn't use the acid dip process to regen their cells. You seem to like to put words in people's mouths.

You are correct in one respect - and I'll answer that burning question you so want to know...

I only have 24 Edison cells - a relatively modest amount from which to work. I move the spares in and out of the chain as I discover new regen techniques but it has become obvious to me that with my desired power requirements, even self-reconditioned NiFe cells will top the 7 grand mark to get the storage I want. Because of that these Ni-Fe cells will only be used as a disaster backup for LA sets. I was hoping that there might be some wisdom out there what could prove me wrong.

I could really care less if you "can come up with any time" for me. I should have followed my initial instinct and just left this thread to rot. This could have been a thread where people could share personal experiences to help each other out, but you have poisoned it like every other Ni-Fe thread out on the web with the same old "veneer of knowledge" story line you so love to tell. Yours is a regurgitation of old published information with a "shuck and jive" routine and an attack as a retort if someone's information does not fit your story line. Attempts at a discussion with you are pointless and will always be less than productive.

Now would Russ allow me to talk like that!!
We are just cut from different cloth and I hurt some people that needed hurting is all.
It was and remains my pleasure. I am confident because I know that I did the work.

The thread did and will continue to do well without either one of us for that matter but a few fans
would hate to see me go so I try to chip in a few paragraphs of info that is ALL backed up by the various experts.

This as it quickly presses to 25,000 Views.

Zapp Works has sent me a whole Lot of email over time (in writing) how old Bill Likes it.
They all have over time.

Where have you published my man?
Enjoy.


Bill Blake

Edit:

Robert, Please don't go! You can teach everyone and I won't say a thing.

Not a peep about anything you say for 3 months. Longer if you wish.
I've gone up to 6 to 7 months here without saying a single word.

This "he is blind to the improvements in the technology"
has me fascinated.

Are you talking about the Chinese Changhong Ni-Fe Cells like Mike has invested in?
Or something new in your mind?

Even after conversations with 'Changhong and the Electric Indian' themselves
I still don't know what is better about them now.
But I'm old.

Their top Ni-Fe salesman in America, for years now, told me that he doesn't know what's better about them either.
Deep down he's an Edison fan but may just not know any better.

Keep in mind dat even though he is the 'Father of Chinese Ni-Fe Cells in America'
he is getting older now as well. I have no doubt. He is Listening now.
Hit it.


Bill Blake

[ursus_maritimus]

Hmm... Edision patented the use of Li as a electrolyte additive in 1908. Work almost a century later using EDAX and XRD (tools Edison never even dreamed of) confirm this was a major advancement in reduction of iron poisoning.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0013468686800561

.

Is this reference likely to be intelligible to a layman with formal exposure to only basic college level chemistry and physics? I don't have an account with that site, and the journal is not on the list of electronic journals on the library system at my place of employment. I could attempt to track down a copy via interlibrary loan. As I said in an earlier post, I do have some Changhong cells in storage and finally have a secure place to set them up where no-one will accidentally come in contact with them.

I am curious as to the effects of different different concentrations of electrolyte (KOH and LiOH) but do not have the background to design a meaningful experiment (other than perhaps using the float oil on only some some cells within a string and seeing if that affects carbonation)
I do have some ability to perform as a highly trained monkey that has kept me employed the past 20 years. The cells are only half the capacity of the ones mike90250 and SteveC have, and I was considering configuring them as two parallel strings with one inverter to be more useful, but would consider two completely separate systems if I could learn something useful from that.

I am considering getting another set that won't have spent two years in storage (On some of the cells I received there was a noticeable dark bath-tub-like ring on the interior of the case, near the fill lines. What does that mean?)

[Mike90250]

....

I am considering getting another set that won't have spent two years in storage (On some of the cells I received there was a noticeable dark bath-tub-like ring on the interior of the case, near the fill lines. What does that mean?)

I noticed all my cells developed that same dark ring shortly after I started using them, but vendor suggested I was seeing things. There was only about 2 months of factory sealed storage in my case, before they were filled and activated.

Robert, Bill,
can we stop bickering over whom is published where, and how many old patent #'s can be found, and
get onto the process of sharing data ?

If it continues of

"you are not humble enough for me to share with anyone else"

, it hurts ALL of us, and nobody benefits. Being smug, does not = winning.

Now, to get to MY issue - apparent low capacity and low recharge efficiency.
There are several charts I've found, that list capacity vs depth of discharge, but none seem to be listed as 20% discharge, 50%, 90% discharged.

So if I pull my cells down to 1.10V, is that 40% or 80% discharged ? Opinions ? Facts ?

Recharge efficiency, I'm seeing 32KWh used in a day, and 79KWh to recharge and complete a 2 hr absorb cycle. That's really rough in winter, where I easily see 4-9 days of solid cloud cover, and have to run generator.

So, now I'm hurting, but not fatally, I'm hauling firewood & generator fuel, but I still have the fridge and LP stove. I know Sunking cautioned about the NiFe recharge efficiency, but being enthusiastic, I listened to vendors, because at that time, there was not much user information on the web about them.

So lets get over this bickering, and get into sharing meaty data, ok ?

[Sundetective]

Went to see The KW Kid for answers

I noticed all my cells developed that same dark ring shortly after I started using them, but vendor suggested I was seeing things. There was only about 2 months of factory sealed storage in my case, before they were filled and activated.

Robert, Bill,
can we stop bickering over whom is published where, and how many old patent #'s can be found, and
get onto the process of sharing data ?

If it continues of , it hurts ALL of us, and nobody benefits. Being smug, does not = winning.

Now, to get to MY issue - apparent low capacity and low recharge efficiency.
There are several charts I've found, that list capacity vs depth of discharge, but none seem to be listed as 20% discharge, 50%, 90% discharged.

So if I pull my cells down to 1.10V, is that 40% or 80% discharged ? Opinions ? Facts ?

Recharge efficiency, I'm seeing 32KWh used in a day, and 79KWh to recharge and complete a 2 hr absorb cycle. That's really rough in winter, where I easily see 4-9 days of solid cloud cover, and have to run generator.

So, now I'm hurting, but not fatally, I'm hauling firewood & generator fuel, but I still have the fridge and LP stove. I know Sunking cautioned about the NiFe recharge efficiency, but being enthusiastic, I listened to vendors, because at that time, there was not much user information on the web about them.

So lets get over this bickering, and get into sharing meaty data, ok ?

Mike, 'The KW Kid' wants to know was the 'Changhong Reseller' or Vendor as you say handing out
his free Amp Hour Meter when you got your Ni-Fe Cells.

What brand of Ah meter are you using?

Your Vendor has claimed that unlike Lead Acid Batteries you can forget trying to get any accurate ideas
of most anything just going by Voltage with the Ni-Fe Cells.

If he doesn't know after all these years - just who does?

ONLY when your Voltage is all the way UP or when your Voltage is all the way DOWN really matters.

Then your Meter tells you how many Amp Hours you used and from that point
your Discharge Percentage becomes simple math from then on.

In your case the Percentage sounds too high - it no Lie.

Your Charging RateS need to be discussed. You may be killing yourself.

IF your under the New Ni-Fe Warranty -

IF you drop below 1.0 Volts per Cell your Guarantee goes bye bye and becomes Void.

So Let's just call 1.0 Volts 'Dead Enough' !!

See old Bills Post # 46 for some of 'the old knowledge' he provides.

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?4755-Batteries-on-the-way&p=58323#post58323

It's a dangerous game but at least one time you need to hit 1.0 to find out what's going on.

If it were me I might want to use a different meter for the experiment.

The KW Kid says that once he has your answers for me to come back with my hat in hand.

He said that I have to bring something so he can get 'tightened up'

if I wants his finest opinions.


Bill Blake

[Robert1234]

So if I pull my cells down to 1.10V, is that 40% or 80% discharged ? Opinions ? Facts ?

Mike - Your answer is very dependant on the combination of the internal resistance of your cell(s) and your draw rate. The "harder" you pull on a NiFe cell, the lower the instantaneous voltage drop even when ignoring the power consumed. When you stop drawing power, the voltage will rise as the cells rest. So... I'm going to make an assumption that you may be drawing at a C5 rate.

On the cells I've reconditioned, I see a step change in "plateau" voltage dropping from 1.2v to 1.05v (passing quickly thru the 1.1v level) as I pull at the C5 rate. Refer to chart below. The black line is a C5 draw to 1.05v. The red line continues the C5 draw to 0.90v. I didn't include the C20 continued draw as the chart might get confusing. (Do your cells do the same?? I would think so, but I can't state that as a fact.) Under these conditions, I can only get about 60% of the power drawing C5 to 1.05 as compared to when I complete the tests and include the C20 rate draw to 0.9 volts.





That suggests you're draining your batteries at least by 60%, but if you're drain rate is more like a C20 vs C5, you will draing a fair piece north of 60% from your batteries. Your next statement suggests that might be the case.

Recharge efficiency, I'm seeing 32KWh used in a day, and 79KWh to recharge and complete a 2 hr absorb cycle. That's really rough in winter, where I easily see 4-9 days of solid cloud cover, and have to run generator.

That's pretty close in % efficiency to what I'm seeing on my little setup, but I know I'm "overstuffing" the batteries and that is when efficiency takes a nose dive. I also experience abnormal high water comsumption under those conditions. I've been as high as 65% recovery of what I put in when I decrease the number of panels feeding the cells.

I think I remember reading somewhere you are 800 amphr @ 48 volts? If so, that suggests a 38.4kwh storage capacity. Being able to draw out 32kwh (80%+) is pretty impressive.

Hope this helps.

[Mike90250]

.... Recharge efficiency, I'm seeing 32KWh used in a day, and 79KWh to recharge and complete a 2 hr absorb cycle. That's really rough in winter, where I easily see 4-9 days of solid cloud cover, and have to run generator. ......

Actually, Correction DAY should be WEEK, so I'm using 32 kwh a week, and in the same week, 79 kwh was used to recharge. I had to go through my logs, looking for a week that started full, and ended full.

I'm not getting 79 kwh daily, out of a 3kw array in winter !

I suppose there is some incidental daytime usage mixed in there, but at the most, 1KWh per day, or 7KWh total so my recharge efficiency goes up a fraction, 32kwh out, and 72kwh replacement.

So when I'm not in summer mode, pumping water for ag usage, I'm burning about 4.5 kwh per day, which includes 2, energy star fridges. (that's about 140kwh per month for city dwellers).

****

So, the lowest my bank (42 cells) has been, has been 46V, [ 1.095V per cell ] which was, with a 6KW inverter, nowhere the 130 amps the inverter could have possibly drawn. Say a 1Kw load, would be no more than 25A from a 800ah bank, should still be a pretty light load for them.

Both meters, in the Tristar, and the Xantrex, agree pretty well, along with my 2 DVM's, so I'm not too concerned about metering.

[inetdog]

Originally Posted by ursus_maritimus
....

I am considering getting another set that won't have spent two years in storage (On some of the cells I received there was a noticeable dark bath-tub-like ring on the interior of the case, near the fill lines. What does that mean?)
I noticed all my cells developed that same dark ring shortly after I started using them, but vendor suggested I was seeing things. There was only about 2 months of factory sealed storage in my case, before they were filled and activated.

I noticed all my cells developed that same dark ring shortly after I started using them, but vendor suggested I was seeing things. There was only about 2 months of factory sealed storage in my case, before they were filled and activated.

Several things come to mind immediately:
1. Are either of you using any kind of magic float oil on top of the electrolyte?
2. Is the ring below, above or straddling the space between the lowest electrolyte level and the highest? And is it darkest at the top?
If so, it could result from the electrolyte clinging to the plastic as the level boils down and drying on the side.
3. Or the result of a reaction between the electrolyte and the plastic in the presence of high oxygen concentration just above the electrolyte surface? The hydrogen will rise and be dissipated, while the oxygen will just replace the nitrogen-oxygen mix which is normal air.
4. Possibly some impurity in the electrolyte or something dissolved off the plates at the initial fill is just rising to the surface of the electrolyte and being deposited on the plastic as the level goes up and down?
5. Next???

Can you safely reach into the cell through the fill hole with a non-conductive alkali-resistant probe and rub the surface of the case to see whether it is an insoluble deposit that will rub or scrape off or a change to the plastic itself. (Either one would be worrisome to me.)

[Sundetective]

Actually, Correction DAY should be WEEK, so I'm using 32 kwh a week, and in the same week, 79 kwh was used to recharge. I had to go through my logs, looking for a week that started full, and ended full.

I'm not getting 79 kwh daily, out of a 3kw array in winter !

I suppose there is some incidental daytime usage mixed in there, but at the most, 1KWh per day, or 7KWh total so my recharge efficiency goes up a fraction, 32kwh out, and 72kwh replacement.

So when I'm not in summer mode, pumping water for ag usage, I'm burning about 4.5 kwh per day, which includes 2, energy star fridges. (that's about 140kwh per month for city dwellers).

****

So, the lowest my bank (42 cells) has been, has been 46V, [ 1.095V per cell ] which was, with a 6KW inverter, nowhere the 130 amps the inverter could have possibly drawn. Say a 1Kw load, would be no more than 25A from a 800ah bank, should still be a pretty light load for them.

Both meters, in the Tristar, and the Xantrex, agree pretty well, along with my 2 DVM's, so I'm not too concerned about metering.

So you didn't get the free E-Xpert Pro Battery Monitor that is now standard, required equipment
when dealing with your Nickel Iron Battery Dealer.

http://www.tbs-electronics.nl/products_expertpro_features.htm

If you had it your Ni-Fe Guarantee would rise and set around that - and only that - Meter.
Period.

Since you have a state of the art generator set-up we have no way of knowing how much power you use
per day based on your solar panels unless you say.

The first daily figure you quoted sounded good to me since it works out to around $3 per day
where I live. That's less than 1/2 of the latest bill here.

Now your talking less than 45 cents per day plus a little tax - if it was here.

What kind of generator fuel costs are you looking at ??

So if I take $7992 worth of Rolls 5000 Series Batteries (including delivery)

and charge them just one time for the entire week

and then discharge them by 78% only one time for the entire week

I will equal your entire Ni-Fe trip for the whole week. Wow.

Seems hard to believe - don't it.

Let me at's it.


Bill Blake

[russ]

Bill - Your assistance and 10$ will allow one to buy a cup of Starbucks coffee. Forums are nice bu most have more BS than useful information.

So you didn't get the free E-Xpert Pro Battery Monitor that is now standard, required equipment
when dealing with your Nickel Iron Battery Dealer.

http://www.tbs-electronics.nl/products_expertpro_features.htm

If you had it your Ni-Fe Guarantee would rise and set around that - and only that - Meter.
Period.

Since you have a state of the art generator set-up we have no way of knowing how much power you use
per day based on your solar panels unless you say.

The first daily figure you quoted sounded good to me since it works out to around $3 per day
where I live. That's less than 1/2 of the latest bill here.

Now your talking less than 45 cents per day plus a little tax - if it was here.

What kind of generator fuel costs are you looking at ??

So if I take $7992 worth of Rolls 5000 Series Batteries (including delivery)

and charge them just one time for the entire week

and then discharge them by 78% only one time for the entire week

I will equal your entire Ni-Fe trip for the whole week. Wow.

Seems hard to believe - don't it.

Let me at's it.


Bill Blake

[Mike90250]

Nope, no battery monitor included.

I've never claimed what my generator setup is, and it's NOT state of art. It's old enough to be art.
I get my usage and harvest from the internal logs of the inverter and charge controller, and have no reason to suspect they are anything other than good commercial grade monitoring, within +-5% or so.

When the water pump is not running, I have little daytime loads, since I've had no good sun, I've actually gone to laundromat to save power and generator runtime. Fuel costs are negligible.

and Bill B, I'm just not getting the reference to the Rolls batteries.

Mike

[Sundetective]

Nope, no battery monitor included.

I've never claimed what my generator setup is, and it's NOT state of art. It's old enough to be art.
I get my usage and harvest from the internal logs of the inverter and charge controller, and have no reason to suspect they are anything other than good commercial grade monitoring, within +-5% or so.

When the water pump is not running, I have little daytime loads, since I've had no good sun, I've actually gone to laundromat to save power and generator runtime. Fuel costs are negligible.

and Bill B, I'm just not getting the reference to the Rolls batteries.

Mike

No free battery monitor means you must have the previous Ni-Fe guarantee.
A person wanting to learn can pick up a bit from reading that guarantee as well.
I posted it a long time ago in the Fieldlines forum and the Wind-sun forum.

I thought you had Lister Pictures posted on the Internet and also post in a forum about the Lister.
To many people Lister Generators are a big deal.

The Rolls reference is to give newer people a reference point as to what were talking about.
Sometimes it sound like a man on the moon project going on around here instead of (8) Eight
Six Volt Rolls 5000 Cells at 820 Amp Hours each.
$999 each delivered where I live.

If your fuel costs are low and you use such little power - what's to worry?

The 700's you have take less than 1/2 the electrolyte that the 800 series uses.
They are small batteries in comparison to the 800's.
Price wise buyers Lose and the sellers Win comparing the two series.

Now that we know what we know about the electrolyte problems you may actually be better off
to the tune of thousands of dollars over the years having the small reservoirs.

Getting the 1/2 measure of the Lithium Hydroxide is a big problem according to the
Changhong Battery Doctor. Then it's a cheap 1/2 potency grade on top of not being enough.

Changhong may have had some heat problems with the small reservoirs back in the day but
those guys were pushing a C4 or C5 Charging Rate.

I'm starting back into a research project for my son so good luck.
You should be able to figure it all out.
It may not have to be so bad.


Bill Blake

[Robert1234]

Mike,

If I understand your question correctly now, you would like to define 100% Power as a C30 drain to 1.0v - then you would like to know what % of that power is discharged via a C30 drain to 1.1v. Have I got that part right?