Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

[Naptown]

4G is 90 miles away in the city. 3G is supposed to be active, a friend will be trying it out this week. and we'll see if a G spot will be the ticket.

fixed it for you

[Hemonster]

I just got a quote from Seiden battery in China for NiFe 400AHr cells at USD$200, or $0.42/whr.
Comparing this to a quote I got for high quality Enersys PbA 2.4V 1000AHr at USD434, $0.18/whr - or more like $0.36/whr if you account for 50% DOD.

Both are rated for 20 years or more (ie. >=8000 cycles). Note Wikipedia reckons PbA charge/discharge efficiency is 50/95%:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93acid_battery

This means energy through put in/out of the cell is 47% efficient.

NiFe has 65/80% efficiencies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93iron_battery

This means energy in/out is 52% efficient.

These numbers in pricing and efficiency would seem to indicate that NiFe and high quality PbA are about similar price points and efficiencies - however one is a lot less toxic. Of course the toxicity is well contained and really it boils down to if or not you have good recycling options, or if the cells have to be shipped to another country to be recycled (adding to disposal costs).

NiFe power density is far inferior to PbA, but for a solar setup of 48V with power output at 5kw, this is only 100A which is C/4 rating which is ok for the 400Ahr cell. This means that the amount of power you required (not energy) has an influence on the sizing of the battery - which is not really the case for PbA.

Even if PbAs are more efficient at other operating points, solar panels are getting cheaper - I'm getting mine at about USD$1.10/watt ... and they are only getting cheaper. Working out the irradiance of the area I'm in against total surface area and efficiency of panel and derating it over 20 years, I still think that the pricing of the NiFe's would rival that of a high quality PbA. If you use the energy while the sun shines, you don't get the penalty of battery inefficiency regardless of chemistry you choose - so only run the low power appliances at night.

Further note, I've read that PbA cells will usually have rapid deterioration of performance after rated capacity due to wear on the Pb plates. If sulphation occurs (low charge states), the reduction in capacity is usually permanent. With NiFe cells, you don't need a generator to return the battery state of charge back up to full (they are happy to remain at zero charge for extended periods) - you only need to size one to run your household power until the next sunny day comes along. It makes little sense to charge up the battery for discharge again, when you can contain the stored energy in the liquid fuel until it is required - far more efficient.

Cool the generator down by heating up the hot water cylinder and you can heat the house at the same time - a cogen system utilises that liquid energy far more efficiently again.

Best of all, don't use any chemical batteries - just use a thermal battery based on vege oil instead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duuk_r--lqU

Hope that helps to open your minds up to possibilities.

[Sundetective]

Your 400 Ah Seiden Ni-Fe Battery Cells

I just got a quote from Seiden battery in China for NiFe 400AHr cells at USD$200, or $0.42/whr.
Comparing this to a quote I got for high quality Enersys PbA 2.4V 1000AHr at USD434, $0.18/whr - or more like $0.36/whr if you account for 50% DOD.

Both are rated for 20 years or more (ie. >=8000 cycles). Note Wikipedia reckons PbA charge/discharge efficiency is 50/95%:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93acid_battery

This means energy through put in/out of the cell is 47% efficient.

NiFe has 65/80% efficiencies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93iron_battery

This means energy in/out is 52% efficient.

These numbers in pricing and efficiency would seem to indicate that NiFe and high quality PbA are about similar price points and efficiencies - however one is a lot less toxic. Of course the toxicity is well contained and really it boils down to if or not you have good recycling options, or if the cells have to be shipped to another country to be recycled (adding to disposal costs).

NiFe power density is far inferior to PbA, but for a solar setup of 48V with power output at 5kw, this is only 100A which is C/4 rating which is ok for the 400Ahr cell. This means that the amount of power you required (not energy) has an influence on the sizing of the battery - which is not really the case for PbA.

Even if PbAs are more efficient at other operating points, solar panels are getting cheaper - I'm getting mine at about USD$1.10/watt ... and they are only getting cheaper. Working out the irradiance of the area I'm in against total surface area and efficiency of panel and derating it over 20 years, I still think that the pricing of the NiFe's would rival that of a high quality PbA. If you use the energy while the sun shines, you don't get the penalty of battery inefficiency regardless of chemistry you choose - so only run the low power appliances at night.

Further note, I've read that PbA cells will usually have rapid deterioration of performance after rated capacity due to wear on the Pb plates. If sulphation occurs (low charge states), the reduction in capacity is usually permanent. With NiFe cells, you don't need a generator to return the battery state of charge back up to full (they are happy to remain at zero charge for extended periods) - you only need to size one to run your household power until the next sunny day comes along. It makes little sense to charge up the battery for discharge again, when you can contain the stored energy in the liquid fuel until it is required - far more efficient.

Cool the generator down by heating up the hot water cylinder and you can heat the house at the same time - a cogen system utilises that liquid energy far more efficiently again.

Best of all, don't use any chemical batteries - just use a thermal battery based on vege oil instead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duuk_r--lqU

Hope that helps to open your minds up to possibilities.

Hemonster,

It's nice to hear from you about Seiden. They are left out of the Nickel-Iron-Battery discussions most
of the time. Stephen Ellis at Zapp Works in Montana talks with them and Changhong once in a while.
Here's a <snip> from Stephen:

"The production process is the Varta pocket plate design originally from Germany and sold to both
Seiden and Sichang Changhong battery manufactures.
The Chinese batteries are rated by individual cell readings and not as a total battery system so the
ratings are not true."

Stephen is a real Pro though I have developed some serious differences with some of his thinking.
There are a number of 'higher authorities' but naturally Thomas A. Edison's certified research notes
wind up being number one with a lot of it - for some people.

Anyway if it's pretty much, a same-same battery making set-up you can get a whole lot more
information about the Changhong Ni-Fe batteries than you can about the Seiden Ni-Fe batteries.
There is a great deal of ongoing controversy involving the two Changhong resellers in America and
their practices right now. It's just beginning to really blossom.
They are just waiting for the next shoe to drop. ( the devils )
You can Google:

'John D'Angelo and Brandon Williams' if you have any interest.

The Ni-Fe subject has a painful amount of data and details to it and was a real puzzle to me for a
while with so many contradictions. Many written and some verbal conversations with people like
Changhong's PhD Battery Chemist have helped a lot. Plus documents from Changhong and elsewhere.
All known forum accounts that we could find for any year that we were able to read or translate.
It goes on. Even the Russian's have helped us. Some claim that Russia won't write back.
It was just the opposite.

There is always more to find out but plenty95 of various specifics have already been found in the
last 15 months or so. Also in years past but never as a project.
Getting it into some type of a report that is clear and doesn't drift can be a challenge.

As far as what you said I would reconsider your figures on Life Cycles and the Round-trip Ni-Fe Efficiency.
It's not that simple.
There is a very active thread in a Brother forum that is called:

'Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. from the Manufacturer'

You can Google it if interested. Ni-Fe always has had potential that was not realized. Then and now.
A big part of the puzzle has been due to the many myths, jive, wives tales and (to be polite)
deliberate misconceptions systematically planted and promoted for profits by the Ni-Fe resellers.

It's up to you the buyer to find the truths out especially about the Electrolyte which is a complex,
long, drawn out, detailed and thankless story.

The thing is once a person gets hooked on the quest and they are up in years do they keep the findings
to themselves and 'take it with them'. Or give it up for present and future people that have an interest.
Keep in mind Hemonster that Ni-Fe is not that awful popular of a subject in most off-grid type forums.
Not yet. Not until a hybrid battery marriage swings through Solar Town someday.

Bill Blake

[Hemonster]

Does the layer of oil (mineral or otherwise) solve the carbonation problem in the KOH electrolyte? Seems like it should as it would stop air from getting to it.
I suppose you don't want to use vege oil because it would eventually go rancid. Would sewing machine oil do the trick?

[msaine]

Short sighted view on NIFE batteries

I do not think you will get many replies as NiFe are just unsuitable for RE applications. They are just too expensive, more than lithium, and extremely inefficient charge characteristics. I know of a couple of people who have toyed with the idea, but with a cost of $2 to $6/wh is just out of the question, plus 40% larger solar panel array to make up for the 65% charge efficiency just makes it unreasonable. Lead acid cost are $0.14/wh for a 10 year battery, and LFP is around $0.50/wh. No one in their right mind is going to pay 10 to 40 times more for a battery


For now and for the foreseeable future lead acid chemistry are king, and soon Lithium LFP may make their mark when prices come down some more and reasonable battery management systems enter the RE market.

I think you are over looking a couple of points concerning NIFE batteries vs Lead acid. Given, the up front cost of NIFE is higher, but the long term costs (which is what a smart person would consider for a solar system) is considerably lower for NIFE. They outlast leadacid by decades, they do not require hazardous chemicals to maintain. A set of Lead acid batteries will last (if your lucky and if you don't over charge them,10 Years ) whereas the NIFE's from the days of Edison are still viable. They simply do not wear out, they only require distilled water to replenish fluids lost, are immune to over charge problems of Lead, and for the proper system design are far superior to other technologies for length of service and maintenance. Many Railroad NIFE battieries are still in service since the early 1900's.

The reason US manufactures quit making them is simple: They don't wear out! what profit is there in selloing a product the consumer doesn't have to replace?

We in this country are way to used to equipment that is designed to be replaced. Ever consider the simple weed wacker? Most have a 1 year warranty, thats about 40 hours of operation to design for. Then throw it away and buy a new one!

[Sunking]

they do not require hazardous chemicals to maintain. they only require distilled water to replenish fluids lost,

Do you care to retract your own statement now, or do I need to make you eat your words later? Your choice, I will give you 6 hours before I embarrass you and make you eat your words. Ball is in your court.

[inetdog]

I think you are over looking a couple of points concerning NIFE batteries vs Lead acid. Given, the up front cost of NIFE is higher, but the long term costs (which is what a smart person would consider for a solar system) is considerably lower for NIFE. They outlast leadacid by decades, they do not require hazardous chemicals to maintain. A set of Lead acid batteries will last (if your lucky and if you don't over charge them,10 Years ) whereas the NIFE's from the days of Edison are still viable. They simply do not wear out, they only require distilled water to replenish fluids lost, are immune to over charge problems of Lead, and for the proper system design are far superior to other technologies for length of service and maintenance. Many Railroad NIFE battieries are still in service since the early 1900's.

The reason US manufactures quit making them is simple: They don't wear out! what profit is there in selloing a product the consumer doesn't have to replace?

We in this country are way to used to equipment that is designed to be replaced. Ever consider the simple weed wacker? Most have a 1 year warranty, thats about 40 hours of operation to design for. Then throw it away and buy a new one!

You are certainly entitled to your cynical opinion on the reason for the current state of NiFe. My personal opinion is that there are enough problems with NiFe, that have not been satisfactorily addressed, to explain their current obscurity.

But one very real problem which makes it harder for NiFe enthusiasts to get started and requires some extra work on their part is the very steep voltage versus SOC curve of the NiFe chemistry. This makes it difficult to extract anywhere near full energy from such a battery using existing inverters designed for Lead/Acid chemistry. Either customization of the inverter by changing the low voltage cutoff point (which may result in extra stress on the inverter and premature burnout), delivering too high a voltage to the inverter when the battery is at a high charge state (which has a high risk of burning out the inverter) or redesign of the inverter to handle a wider range of input voltages in normal operation. (To some extent you are more likely to get away with running the inverter at a lower voltage if you do not go anywhere near its full rated output power.)
Or else (shudder) using additional cells and relays to keep the voltage of the battery string high as the SOC decreases. This is arguably the best way to deal with the transition between net charging and net discharge from the batteries, but has enormous problems when dealing with reduced SOC situations.

Another approach is switching one or more voltage dropping diodes in and out of the circuit, but the energy wasted in them can be quite large!

[msaine]

Do you care to retract your own statement now, or do I need to make you eat your words later? Your choice, I will give you 6 hours before I embarrass you and make you eat your words. Ball is in your court.

Nothing to retract. Once they are filled orginally, they only require distilled water to top off for evaporation. They have a Base "electrolyte" that does not need replenishing over their life time. Repeated charge/discharge cycles do not affect the electrolyte. Thus no hazarodous chemicals to deal with during maintenance. Can you say that for LEAD ACID? Also the newer designs incorporate a sealed cap system that retains water so even that maintenance is reduced.

Also what happens in a bank of lead acid cells when a unit goes bad? You cannot simply drop in a new battery, there is a balancing problem then. NIFE do not have this problem.

BTW these forums are not battle grounds so whats with the attitude? Are you so shallow that you have to bully people with views that don't match your own?

[msaine]

You are certainly entitled to your cynical opinion on the reason for the current state of NiFe. My personal opinion is that there are enough problems with NiFe, that have not been satisfactorily addressed, to explain their current obscurity.

But one very real problem which makes it harder for NiFe enthusiasts to get started and requires some extra work on their part is the very steep voltage versus SOC curve of the NiFe chemistry. This makes it difficult to extract anywhere near full energy from such a battery using existing inverters designed for Lead/Acid chemistry. Either customization of the inverter by changing the low voltage cutoff point (which may result in extra stress on the inverter and premature burnout), delivering too high a voltage to the inverter when the battery is at a high charge state (which has a high risk of burning out the inverter) or redesign of the inverter to handle a wider range of input voltages in normal operation. (To some extent you are more likely to get away with running the inverter at a lower voltage if you do not go anywhere near its full rated output power.)
Or else (shudder) using additional cells and relays to keep the voltage of the battery string high as the SOC decreases. This is arguably the best way to deal with the transition between net charging and net discharge from the batteries, but has enormous problems when dealing with reduced SOC situations.

Another approach is switching one or more voltage dropping diodes in and out of the circuit, but the energy wasted in them can be quite large!

So what your saying is don't use a Leadacid designed charger for NIFE. Sort of like using a NiCad charger to charge LiIon. You can do it, but you better have a fire extinguisher handy. So saying NIFE is not good because you can't use a Leadacid charger system doesn't say anything about NIFE be a bad system, just a harder one to support.

Just takes a more enlightned designer to address NIFE charging. These days that just means a little attention to programming in the charger!

Lead is poison, acid is dangerous, Iron and nickel aren't. But I wouldn't want to take a bath in NIFE electrolyte either

[Sunking]

Nothing to retract. Once they are filled orginally, they only require distilled water to top off for evaporation.

Time to educate you.

Edison knew by 1903 NiFe cells had a huge flaw which he wrote extensively about. The electrolyte becomes contaminated with carbon dioxide after 150 to 200 cycles and has to be replaced every 6 months to a year. Edison stated right in the owners manual the Electrolyte had to be changed out every 8 to 10 months, and the batteries replaced every 3 to 6 years because of the iron poisoning and contamination would render the cells useless and beyond repair. It became such a problem for Edison he never renewed his Patent or perused more development after 1920 and allowed the technology to die. Anyone could have manufactured them at that point and some companies did. . The last US made NiFe was in the early 1975's by Exide which quite production because of no sales or interest in them.

Today Changhong is the only manufacture of NiFe batteries today that I am aware of, and right in their owners manual states it will need frequent Electrolyte replacement.

Quote from the Changhong Batteries Ni-Fe Operators Manual:

3.3.3 The electrolyte will absorb the carbon dioxide in
the air and create carbonate easily during
operation. When carbonate in the electrolyte is
over 50g/L, the performance of the battery
will be badly effected.

After charge and discharge for 150~200 cycles or operate for
1 year, please check the carbonate in the electrolyte. If the carbonate in the
electrolyte is over 50g/L, please replace the electrolyte.

As for the Electrolyte itself is a very caustic chemical just like sulfuric acid in lead acid batteries. The difference is one is an acid and the other is a alkaline. KOH or Potassium Hydroxide is extremely poisonous, will emit explosive gasses when in contact of various salts of ammonia and metals, used as drain cleaners, and will dissolve hair an skin in contact in concentrated form just like sulfuric acid will do. Potassium hydroxide in contact with many common metals (aluminum, tin, and zinc) reacts to produce flammable and potentially explosive hydrogen gas. A third type of reaction involves the dilution of potassium hydroxide with water. As harmless as this may seem, this reaction can be dangerous and even deadly due to the violent exothermic reaction created. This type of exothermic reaction generates heat that is referred to as the "heat of dilution" and is often masked by adding potassium hydroxide solution slowly to water. If the dilution of potassium hydroxide does become necessary, never proceed without first securing the proper control environment.

[inetdog]

If the dilution of potassium hydroxide does become necessary, never proceed without first securing the proper control environment.

In particular, each time you replace the electrolyte you get the potassium hydroxide solution by mixing dry potassium hydroxide crystals with water. Or when your container of powder leaks or gets wet. Or even damp from storage in high humidity.....

[Sunking]

In particular, each time you replace the electrolyte you get the potassium hydroxide solution by mixing dry potassium hydroxide crystals with water. Or when your container of powder leaks or gets wet. Or even damp from storage in high humidity.....

KOH is very dangerous stuff. Here is the MSDS sheet straight from Chungqing who makes and ships with the NiFe battery. It carries Haz Mat class of 8.2, exact same class as sulfuric acid which is 8.1

CLASS 8 - caustic and corrosive substances that cause damage to the skin, eye mucosa and respiratory tracks, corrosion of metals and damage to transportation means, structures or cargo. These substances may cause a fire when interacting with organic materials or some chemical substances;

• sub-class 8.1 - acids,
• sub-class 8.2 - alkalis;
• sub-class 8.3 - various caustic and corrosive substances.

[msaine]

KOH is very dangerous stuff. Here is the MSDS sheet straight from Chungqing who makes and ships with the NiFe battery. It carries Haz Mat class of 8.2, exact same class as sulfuric acid which is 8.1

CLASS 8 - caustic and corrosive substances that cause damage to the skin, eye mucosa and respiratory tracks, corrosion of metals and damage to transportation means, structures or cargo. These substances may cause a fire when interacting with organic materials or some chemical substances;

• sub-class 8.1 - acids,
• sub-class 8.2 - alkalis;
• sub-class 8.3 - various caustic and corrosive substances.

And your point is? Lets see, KOH is caustic, given, Sulphric acid is acidic, given. Both require special handling, given.

Now how often do you need to dip a hydrometer in a lead acid battery exposing your self to the Sulphric acid? Probably at least montly if you care about your cells. How often do you need to test a Nife cell? Maybe every year or so. 1/12 the exposure for Nife.

Next Edison:
1/ The Edison Storage Battery Company was formed in 1910 approximately by Thomas Edison. It was a very profitable company selling batteries for Canadian and USA trains until about 1972. The batteries were also used extensively in Canadian and USA mines for emergency power and for underground trains. Yet many sites claim that NiFe batteries do not work in the cold! Why then would they be used amost exclusively on Canadian trains from 1920 to 1972?

2/ The Edison Storage Battery Company was bought by the Exide (Lead Acid) Battery Company in 1972. The shareholders of Exide were told that Exide would begin manufacturing their own NiFe batteries soon.

3/ In 1975 the Exide Battery Company pulled Nickel Iron Batteries off the market and ceased manufacturing them completely by 1975.

Economics caused Exide to drop Nife! there is less profit in selling something that will last 20 years(or many more) than something you have to replace every 3 to 6 years.

Edison abandoned Nife FOR AUTOS because Gas came along and was cheaper! We all now know what a mistake that was, should have stuck with batteries and global warming would have been greatly reduced.

I was mistaken about not having to replace Nife electrolyte, BUT I STILL DON'T HAVE TO REPLACE THE WHOLE BATTERY! BTW after neutralizing the KOH it is no longer a hazard and it doesn't have to be done be a certified recycler.

For the short sighted out there: LA batteries are cheaper at start up, but with a life expectancy of about a 1/4 of Nife ( we will not consider the over/under charging problems with LA) Nife wins. And if you size your system to account for the 80% charge condition for Nife; the carbonazation problem is either eliminated or at least greatly reduced. The changing of electrolyte every 6 mo to a year is a CYA for the chinese, and an attempt to sell electrolyte on the side.

Nife Tecnology for Solar is very viable, but like anything else the correct support equipment is required and proper procedures are necessary.

[Sunking]

And your point is?

That you do not know what you are talking about. You said in post #95 and I quote you directly:

they do not require hazardous chemicals to maintain. they only require distilled water to replenish fluids lost,

That is when I asked you to retract your statement, and warned you if you did not I would make you eat those words. Both your statements are false, and you ate your words.

[russ]

Comments in bolf within the text.

I was mistaken about not having to replace Nife electrolyte, BUT I STILL DON'T HAVE TO REPLACE THE WHOLE BATTERY! BTW after neutralizing the KOH it is no longer a hazard and it doesn't have to be done be a certified recycler. So you don't have any personal experience with NiFe - just reading?

Nife Tecnology for Solar is very viable, but like anything else the correct support equipment is required and proper procedures are necessary. Like abot everything else in life