Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

[Mike90250]

Thanks for the update Mike!

Did you have to do anything special to adapt the inverter to the larger voltage difference between fully charged and LCO on the NiFe batteries?

on both the inverter and charger, I had to change the setpoints, and am still withing the factory specs. With the higher end gear, it's much more flexible than the costco specials.

[inetdog]

Well, I'm sort of in the deep end here, with a large beutilityfree bank.

The XW inverter and the Morningstar MPPT-60, can be programmed to completely and efficiently charge the batteries, and when I add the 2nd PV array, I'm sure that the Midnight line will be as flexible.

And I just have the mystery of why I'm using a lot of water in the batteries, with only a 20 minute absorb. I hope it's not Co2'd !

gear :
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV || || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

Thanks for the update Mike!

Did you have to do anything special to adapt the inverter to the larger voltage difference between fully charged and LCO on the NiFe batteries?

[Mike90250]

Well, I'm sort of in the deep end here, with a large beutilityfree bank. I'll shortly be ordering the "carbonate test kit" and then I'll know if the fancy flip caps keep out the Co2, or if I have to change out electrolyte. They (and the solar) have been running the construction site full time, and charging the scissor lift weekends and afternoons. The breakers in the sub panel trip sometimes, as the compressor and saws start up, but the XW-6048 inverter has not glitched at all. There is hope now, that the plethora of GFI and ARC Fault Interrupters won't fault the XW, if all the contractors gear has not.
This has cycled my battery bank several times, when they leave the lift charging overnight, and it takes 2 days for the solar to bring the bank back up to full, so I have no doubt the "plates" are fully formed now.

The XW inverter and the Morningstar MPPT-60, can be programmed to completely and efficiently charge the batteries, and when I add the 2nd PV array, I'm sure that the Midnight line will be as flexible.

And I just have the mystery of why I'm using a lot of water in the batteries, with only a 20 minute absorb. I hope it's not Co2'd !

gear :
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV || || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

[russ]

Where did I depart to?

Thought I hit the ban button - guess I didn't - next time an argument starts then.

[msaine]

A pdf link left by msaine before he departed.

The agenda of the authors is unknown - therefor the accuracy is equally unknown - may be first class info or may be garbage.

Russ

http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/E...3.%20DeMar.pdf

Where did I depart to?

[Sundetective]

KOH is very dangerous stuff. Here is the MSDS sheet straight from Chungqing who makes and ships with the NiFe battery. It carries Haz Mat class of 8.2, exact same class as sulfuric acid which is 8.1

CLASS 8 - caustic and corrosive substances that cause damage to the skin, eye mucosa and respiratory tracks, corrosion of metals and damage to transportation means, structures or cargo. These substances may cause a fire when interacting with organic materials or some chemical substances;

• sub-class 8.1 - acids,
• sub-class 8.2 - alkalis;
• sub-class 8.3 - various caustic and corrosive substances.

In this Rip Off Report the two Changhong Nickel Iron Battery dealers
go out of their way to point out (and verify) just how

dangerous and deadly the Nickel Iron Battery (Ni-Fe) Electrolyte can really be.

<snip>

Search results Ripoff Report | BEUTILITYFREE John D'Angelo | Complaint ...
BEUTILITYFREE John D'Angelo off grid NiFe chinese cells, $15000, bait & switch ...

Brandon Williams worked for our company as an INDEPENDENT sales rep and has represented ...
https://www.ripoffreport.com/...john...o-of-f52bd.htm - Cached

http://www.ripoffreport.com/builders-contractors/beutilityfree-john-d/beutilityfree-john-d-angelo-of-f52bd.htm

<snip>

BEUTILITYFREE-John-D-Angelo | Ripoff Report | Complaints ...
BEUTILITYFREE-John-D-Angelo Directory. These Ripoff ... for CPSC Violations Inc.,,

Beware of Brandon Williams!, Addressing customers original post allegations, John D'Angelo ...


I feel people will also get an idea about the types of people involved in that business
and the shame that has been brought down on the Changhong Batteries Company
by failing to keep their house in a good and clean order.

John Mario D'Angelo did another prison sentence over related chemicals
(while claiming the years as Ni-Fe battery sales experience)
and
Brandon Williams has been hurting a lot of people making impossible, wild
Ni-Fe battery claims to take peoples money
even though Changhong tries to warn people. They seem to want solid business but go unheard.

This seems strange since they are the people actually building the Ni-Fe batteries.


Bill Blake

[russ]

A pdf link left by msaine before he departed.

The agenda of the authors is unknown - therefor the accuracy is equally unknown - may be first class info or may be garbage.

Russ

http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/Edison%20Cell%20Rejuvenation%2085%20yr-old%2013.%20DeMar.pdf

[russ]

Doing research on the net does not replace experience.

[Sunking]

For the short sighted out there: LA batteries are cheaper at start up, but with a life expectancy of about a 1/4 of Nife .

You are busted again making false statements. Attached is Chongqing Solar PV Battery Brochure. Go to page 12 of 22 and look at the cycle life chart. It is not as good as a Rolls 5000 series battery at 1/5th the cost of NiFe

[russ]

Comments in bolf within the text.

I was mistaken about not having to replace Nife electrolyte, BUT I STILL DON'T HAVE TO REPLACE THE WHOLE BATTERY! BTW after neutralizing the KOH it is no longer a hazard and it doesn't have to be done be a certified recycler. So you don't have any personal experience with NiFe - just reading?

Nife Tecnology for Solar is very viable, but like anything else the correct support equipment is required and proper procedures are necessary. Like abot everything else in life

[Sunking]

And your point is?

That you do not know what you are talking about. You said in post #95 and I quote you directly:

they do not require hazardous chemicals to maintain. they only require distilled water to replenish fluids lost,

That is when I asked you to retract your statement, and warned you if you did not I would make you eat those words. Both your statements are false, and you ate your words.

[msaine]

KOH is very dangerous stuff. Here is the MSDS sheet straight from Chungqing who makes and ships with the NiFe battery. It carries Haz Mat class of 8.2, exact same class as sulfuric acid which is 8.1

CLASS 8 - caustic and corrosive substances that cause damage to the skin, eye mucosa and respiratory tracks, corrosion of metals and damage to transportation means, structures or cargo. These substances may cause a fire when interacting with organic materials or some chemical substances;

• sub-class 8.1 - acids,
• sub-class 8.2 - alkalis;
• sub-class 8.3 - various caustic and corrosive substances.

And your point is? Lets see, KOH is caustic, given, Sulphric acid is acidic, given. Both require special handling, given.

Now how often do you need to dip a hydrometer in a lead acid battery exposing your self to the Sulphric acid? Probably at least montly if you care about your cells. How often do you need to test a Nife cell? Maybe every year or so. 1/12 the exposure for Nife.

Next Edison:
1/ The Edison Storage Battery Company was formed in 1910 approximately by Thomas Edison. It was a very profitable company selling batteries for Canadian and USA trains until about 1972. The batteries were also used extensively in Canadian and USA mines for emergency power and for underground trains. Yet many sites claim that NiFe batteries do not work in the cold! Why then would they be used amost exclusively on Canadian trains from 1920 to 1972?

2/ The Edison Storage Battery Company was bought by the Exide (Lead Acid) Battery Company in 1972. The shareholders of Exide were told that Exide would begin manufacturing their own NiFe batteries soon.

3/ In 1975 the Exide Battery Company pulled Nickel Iron Batteries off the market and ceased manufacturing them completely by 1975.

Economics caused Exide to drop Nife! there is less profit in selling something that will last 20 years(or many more) than something you have to replace every 3 to 6 years.

Edison abandoned Nife FOR AUTOS because Gas came along and was cheaper! We all now know what a mistake that was, should have stuck with batteries and global warming would have been greatly reduced.

I was mistaken about not having to replace Nife electrolyte, BUT I STILL DON'T HAVE TO REPLACE THE WHOLE BATTERY! BTW after neutralizing the KOH it is no longer a hazard and it doesn't have to be done be a certified recycler.

For the short sighted out there: LA batteries are cheaper at start up, but with a life expectancy of about a 1/4 of Nife ( we will not consider the over/under charging problems with LA) Nife wins. And if you size your system to account for the 80% charge condition for Nife; the carbonazation problem is either eliminated or at least greatly reduced. The changing of electrolyte every 6 mo to a year is a CYA for the chinese, and an attempt to sell electrolyte on the side.

Nife Tecnology for Solar is very viable, but like anything else the correct support equipment is required and proper procedures are necessary.

[Sunking]

In particular, each time you replace the electrolyte you get the potassium hydroxide solution by mixing dry potassium hydroxide crystals with water. Or when your container of powder leaks or gets wet. Or even damp from storage in high humidity.....

KOH is very dangerous stuff. Here is the MSDS sheet straight from Chungqing who makes and ships with the NiFe battery. It carries Haz Mat class of 8.2, exact same class as sulfuric acid which is 8.1

CLASS 8 - caustic and corrosive substances that cause damage to the skin, eye mucosa and respiratory tracks, corrosion of metals and damage to transportation means, structures or cargo. These substances may cause a fire when interacting with organic materials or some chemical substances;

• sub-class 8.1 - acids,
• sub-class 8.2 - alkalis;
• sub-class 8.3 - various caustic and corrosive substances.

[inetdog]

If the dilution of potassium hydroxide does become necessary, never proceed without first securing the proper control environment.

In particular, each time you replace the electrolyte you get the potassium hydroxide solution by mixing dry potassium hydroxide crystals with water. Or when your container of powder leaks or gets wet. Or even damp from storage in high humidity.....

[Sunking]

Nothing to retract. Once they are filled orginally, they only require distilled water to top off for evaporation.

Time to educate you.

Edison knew by 1903 NiFe cells had a huge flaw which he wrote extensively about. The electrolyte becomes contaminated with carbon dioxide after 150 to 200 cycles and has to be replaced every 6 months to a year. Edison stated right in the owners manual the Electrolyte had to be changed out every 8 to 10 months, and the batteries replaced every 3 to 6 years because of the iron poisoning and contamination would render the cells useless and beyond repair. It became such a problem for Edison he never renewed his Patent or perused more development after 1920 and allowed the technology to die. Anyone could have manufactured them at that point and some companies did. . The last US made NiFe was in the early 1975's by Exide which quite production because of no sales or interest in them.

Today Changhong is the only manufacture of NiFe batteries today that I am aware of, and right in their owners manual states it will need frequent Electrolyte replacement.

Quote from the Changhong Batteries Ni-Fe Operators Manual:

3.3.3 The electrolyte will absorb the carbon dioxide in
the air and create carbonate easily during
operation. When carbonate in the electrolyte is
over 50g/L, the performance of the battery
will be badly effected.

After charge and discharge for 150~200 cycles or operate for
1 year, please check the carbonate in the electrolyte. If the carbonate in the
electrolyte is over 50g/L, please replace the electrolyte.

As for the Electrolyte itself is a very caustic chemical just like sulfuric acid in lead acid batteries. The difference is one is an acid and the other is a alkaline. KOH or Potassium Hydroxide is extremely poisonous, will emit explosive gasses when in contact of various salts of ammonia and metals, used as drain cleaners, and will dissolve hair an skin in contact in concentrated form just like sulfuric acid will do. Potassium hydroxide in contact with many common metals (aluminum, tin, and zinc) reacts to produce flammable and potentially explosive hydrogen gas. A third type of reaction involves the dilution of potassium hydroxide with water. As harmless as this may seem, this reaction can be dangerous and even deadly due to the violent exothermic reaction created. This type of exothermic reaction generates heat that is referred to as the "heat of dilution" and is often masked by adding potassium hydroxide solution slowly to water. If the dilution of potassium hydroxide does become necessary, never proceed without first securing the proper control environment.