No prove lithium 1000 cycles

[GeorgeF]

With great interest i've been reading a thread of 2016 where Sunking claimed that there was no documented proven record that Lithium can give 1000 cycles. (See attached screenprint)

I am wondering if now, year 2021, it is already proven that lithium can give lets say more than 1000 cycles @ 80% DoD.

If it is still unclear, I am then wondering why people are so interested in using lithium for offgrid use? Energy density is I think only for EV and portables relevant but not for offgrid home systems.

With just some cables & fuses deep cycle lead acid is ready to serve you, less headdaches and @ max 30% DoD the number of cycles of deep cycle lead acid RE series can be sky high, documented proven I assume. After more than 150 years existence of lead acid it can still be considered as reliable.

Can someone convince me that I, in 2021, must switch to lithium if my lead acid is near eol ??

[Mike90250]

The state of Li batteries has improved. There are major off-grid companies that now offer integration with a couple of Li vendors. The Li vendors warranty the batteries, and it's pretty accepted that as of now, Li batteries an only process so many watt hours in and out. If you use 95% of capacity daily, you wear them out in 4 years. If you use 20% capacity daily, you wear them out in 10 years. Maybe. It's not known yet, what calendar life can be expected from lightly used cells, or if an occasional deep cycle helps or hurts.
If you have been happy with FLA, I'd say stick with them for now, especially if you don't want to have to heat your battery bank in cold climates.

I have no requirement to change to Li, but I am able to maintain my bank with regular maintenance as expected. I know precisely my daily loads and seasonal charging capability from 10+ years of detailed daily logging and would be able to properly size and commission a Li bank when needed.

A "new to off grid" would have no data to plan with, only projected usage and harvest, so dumping a lot of $ into a Li bank, and reaching end of life in a year or two would be an expensive learning experience and create a sour off grid story. Many FLA banks have been destroyed by neophytes. Maybe the LI BMS will prevent those early deaths, maybe not.

[Ampster]

................

Can someone convince me that I, in 2021, must switch to lithium if my lead acid is near eol ??

You are better off asking that question on other forums where there are posters who have used Lithium batteries for years. Most Lithium users have left this forum because there is not the critical mass of members in order to have a meaningful discussion about that subject. . The internet if full of information. Some chemistries are much more dangerous than others and there are risks of toxic fumes if they are ignited.
There is no reason to prove to you that you "must" switch to Lithium. It is a choice. There are still very good choices in Pb batteries. The commercial grid storage industry has evolved to Lithium for there own reasons that are easily discovered with some research.
I first started using them in an EV conversion in 2011 and stayed with them because they were more efficient, I now have 42kWhrs of Lithium batteries which I used to supplement my PV solar to reduce my energy costs.

[GeorgeF]

Ampster,
if I need e.g. 3Kwh per day I can get it with lead acid and still (in 2021) much more cheaper than with lithium.

and Mike,
20% DoD of quality FLA true deep cycle battery can give on paper a lot of cycles also.

[Mike90250]

Ampster,
if I need e.g. 3Kwh per day I can get it with lead acid and still (in 2021) much more cheaper than with lithium.

and Mike,
20% DoD of quality FLA true deep cycle battery can give on paper a lot of cycles also.

True, but the FLA battery has a pretty well anchored lifetime, depending on the size of the debris sump. The tricks for Li have not yet been discovered
and so the ultimate end of life for a lightly cycled pack is still fuzzy. A few more years and more long term data will get filled in from the early adopters.
I've see about a half dozen early Li packs burned up, some starting small fires in the woods around here. Local vendors "red-necked" some Li systems
together before knowing how they really worked and I'm sure some dud cells were shipped the first several years too.

[Ampster]

Ampster,
if I need e.g. 3Kwh per day I can get it with lead acid and still (in 2021) much more cheaper than with lithium...........

Exactly. Why would you even want to try Lithium? As, I said, it all depends on where you are standing. My only point was that there are plenty of people and companies that have made a different decision, but that does not make yours a wrong decision.

[GeorgeF]

There is a someone who is active on internet (youtube) who promotes a (specific) lithium product.

He , also many others, compares like per attached screenprint. I myself am not selling batteries , i am just an amateur user, but it is obvious that many compares with "conflict of interest" , I think.

[Ampster]

There is bias in everyones preference and there are many people out there who have a conflict. Stick with what you know and are comfortable with. There is no reason for you to change just because some one else has changed to Lithium.

[PNjunction]

I've easily gone past 1000 cycles. In fact, I didn't realize full potential because in real-world use for more than a decade, (not just doing repetetive charge/discharge in a lab), the batteries aged faster than I could use up the cycles!

Reminder - please specify LifeP04, and not just "lithium". Not all lithium is equal. Your cellphone battery is not LFP, and is rated for only 360 cycles.

Then again, I didn't murder the Lifepo4 batteries by trying to charge them in sub-freezing temps. Nor did I charge them in my hot-garage in the middle of summer. These things are bad. If you're uncomfortable, so are the batts!

The real issue is finding and buying from a reputable dealer/manufacturer. Still after a decade or more of using LFP. Unfortunately, many still get hoodwinked by poor materials.

[GeorgeF]

C'mon PNjuntion, image_14429.png also LCO 18650 with 500 cycles to the end of voltage according to Panasonic official specs hehe. See attachment.

I am trying to understand DIY guys who solder packs/wall themselves @ home with used laptop 18650 cells. Till now, as an amateur myself, I still do not understand. As an experiment I bought a small portable chicom prefabricated 2s2p and 3s3p pack, which I can put in the 18650 ex-laptop cells without soldering, pict 2. I just forget about the quality & external resistances etc... and just cycle the used batteries to power a 5v led tube @ my "OUTSIDE" terrace for few hours. Works fine till now and im not dreaming that those used batteries will last long.

Ofcourse for my critical loads I only use lead acid. My choice.

There are DIY persons in the country where im living right now, Indonesia, claiming they can cycle used laptop batteries more than 4 years with their own DIY walls. Before readers think it is normal, it is not.

There is also a hype all over the internet about Lifepo4 and a lot of misinformation, especially if they are comparing LFP vs true deep cycle lead acid.

I've read some of your posts here, PNjunction, and I recommend DIY and LFP users & others to read his posts here. Excellent posts, my compliments.

[Ampster]

Not all 18650 are the same. That Panasonic NCR18650B is just one example..Yes there is more hype with everything. Stick with what you are comfortable with.
Like PNjunction i have been using various Lithium batteries for the past 10 years. My preference is for LFP also known as LiFePO4. The guy that purchased my converted VW with Winston LFP batteries that I installed 10 yrars ago says they still work. He does not drive the car every day so it is anybody's guess how may cycles they have. He does not have to trickle charge them and he can leave them at 75 % for months.

[scrambler]

And FYI, People have been driving electric cars based on lithium batteries for almost 10 years, and at 365 days a year, that is 3650 cycles....

So saying there is no proof these lithium batteries can last 1000 cycle seems pretty baseless. That is only 3 years of daily use, and by now I am pretty sure there even are solar installations based on lithium batteries that have lasted way more than 3 years...

As mentioned here, I don't think the argument is whether they can last that long, but whether their benefits justify the price for your specific usage scenario and preference.

[GeorgeF]

And FYI, People have been driving electric cars based on lithium batteries for almost 10 years, and at 365 days a year, that is 3650 cycles....

So saying there is no proof these lithium batteries can last 1000 cycle seems pretty baseless. That is only 3 years of daily use, and by now I am pretty sure there even are solar installations based on lithium batteries that have lasted way more than 3 years...

As mentioned here, I don't think the argument is whether they can last that long, but whether their benefits justify the price for your specific usage scenario and preference.

1000 cycles @ end of voltage, 500 for LCO18650. Ofcourse you can get more cycles when you shallow cycle after charging < 100% SoC. Same with lead acid after FSOC

[scrambler]

And so it is only a matter of price vs function

[Ampster]

1000 cycles @ end of voltage, 500 for LCO18650. .........

Other than the hobbyists you mentioned earlier I do not see many DIYers using LOC18650. Its irrelevant to compare them to all the other choices. Stick with your Pb batteries.
If you are looking for a Lithium battery to pick on try LIPO. You can add fires to the things contributing to shorter life. California is adding GigaWatts of storage and it is not Pb. Long term it is the economics that will drive who buys what.