Trojan lithium finally here!

[PNjunction]

Wow - after all these years, I didn't think it would happen. Trojan's Trillium line of batteries:

https://www.trojanbattery.com/trillium/

Even though I'm familiar with LifePo4, I think this would make the IDEAL "LFP learner battery". Basically ignore my own simplified Lifepo4 care articles and do it right. Times have changed, and it took awhile for a big player to come around.

Yes, it's a drop-in with built-in bms. And these days, *if done properly*, which I'm sure Trojan has done, it just makes more sense than a hodepodge of individual cells done diy.

Interestingly enough, there's the real-world situation of where the normal public is going to use lead-acid chargers with this, rather than needing a specialized LFP charger. I get it. In most circumstances, a lead-acid charger is damaging to an LFP, and it appears that the internal bms will do the real job compensating for using basically the wrong charger. Just think - we'll have basically nothing to argure about, except for doing a power-budget and calculating solar insolation to get the size you need!

There's a lot of info at the site. Is there competition? Sure. Especially at the JUNK low end. It comes down to this: do you want something built by an actual battery manufacturer, or just some guys in a shed tossing crap into a plastic box?

I'm pretty excited about it. Not just from a project standpoint, but from a self-protecting (both battery and user) standpoint. Look like KISS to me now!

[PNjunction]

SOLAR ISSUE:

As Mike90250 has pointed out in another thread, what happens to your controller when the battery for whatever reason, disconnects itself?

A high-voltage controller may fry. Low end / low current controllers may handle it, but there's a problem: If you fix the issue, on a controller that can handle a disconnect, you are left with the classic problem of "panel attached first, battery last" state - the one in which the controller will not reactivate because what it saw with the panel connected was a "zero volt" battery, and for safety reasons refuses to work until you manually reconnect in the proper order.

OR, some enter a very low-voltage charge, much lower than the CV setting you had originally intended.

From reading the users guide, where one is supposed to balance the cells upon the very first charge, if you do it via solar, that disconnect while the cells balance may be problematic if you try to do this initial charge via solar only.

At least Trojan states very clearly that installations should make sure that disconnection of the battery for whatever reason due to it's operation is accounted for!

I'll have to dig into this before any sort of purchase, that's for sure. Maybe these aren't viable for simple solar connections after all.

[Bala]

I thought this was going to cover battery disconnect. It mentions it, but then seems to drift away from it. Perhaps I am just not comprehending it well.


Then at the bottom is a disclaimer.

https://www.morningstarcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/morningstar-trojan-battery-compatibility-technote.pdf

[Mike90250]

Wow, that's a $1K battery I think I'll wait for the price to come down a bit. And it does have a contactor in it, which will disconnect the battery under many conditions.

No heater in it, so no good for frigid climates

Not sure if a big V8 engine starter (or diesel) will fry the 400A internal fuse, that would be bad

[PNjunction]

I came off my cloud and saw the price too. I kinda expected it, but sorry, not for me any more.

Manufacturers can waive the 2000 / 5000 cycle flag all they want, but unless there is a justified need for it commercially, it is an expensive toy for most of us for the simple rules that apply to all batteries:

1) Most of us get our power-budget wrong, or have changing needs, and getting that wrong with these is a lesson your wallet won't forget too easily as we murder our batteries. Toss in solar insolation, days of autonomy into the mix - and let's get real - most just "wing it" until it works.

2) AGE. All batteries age, and if you don't cycle these to get all you can out of them, there is a distinct possibility you'll outlive their calendar performance life. Some tend to think lithium batts are "solid state" batteries, but sadly, like all chemical reactions, degrade over time just sitting around even under the best of environmental conditions.

3) Related to #1: batteries get dumped on the used market, and to me buying or selling used batteries makes as much sense as buying or selling used underwear. One never knows what the previous owner did to them. Of course forum questions can go on for 300 messages or so without the original op fessing up to that fact.

Neh - I'll still fool around with my KISS monitoring of small cell-count LFP batts - like 4 quality prismatics in a series since I can handle that no problem with minimum fuss for a sub-c application. But that's me.

[peakbagger]

My guess is Trojan did not have choice. FLAs are regarded as old tech and Lithium new tech. It may or may not be right but that is the perception. If Trojan doesnt offer it they may not get the phone call which then allows them to propose a premium lithium solution or a more affordable FLA solution.

[azdave]

It doesn't have to make financial sense to the informed buyer as long as there are enough other purchasers to support their venture. Just look at the number of people who lined up to buy Tesla solar roofs and Powerwalls. Prices will fall of course as with any new tech released.

[extrafu]

Just FYI, Rolls has also released theirs:

24V version: https://rollsbattery.com/wp-content/...24-2800LFP.pdf

48V version: https://rollsbattery.com/wp-content/...48-6650LFP.pdf

Cheers,

[nwdiver]

FLAs are regarded as old tech and Lithium new tech. It may or may not be right but that is the perception.

That's been a bit frustrating from my perspective. The biggest benefits of Lithium are that it's light, it doesn't suffer from puekerts law and you can deep cycle them without much damage. I don't care how heavy the battery that sits in my garage is and the second two can be overcome by just installing a bigger battery. If you need 20kWh then install 60kWh. 60kWh of PbSO4 is still going to be cheaper than 20kWh of lithium and it will last just as long if not longer. I just added 18kWh of SPRE batteries. As long as I don't exceed 50% DOD they should be good for ~2k cycles. Cost me $2500. I can't even get 4kWh of new Li-Ion for that price.

I'd love to see more appreciation for PbSO4. Then there's also the fact that recycling is WAAAY easier.

I can see how this WOULD be great for RV'ers or live aboards that don't want to haul >1,000#s of batteries with them.

[tom rickard]

You’ve missed the main advantage LiFePO4 has over Pb - it’s ability to accept rapid charge.

You can have a battery bank slighty larger than your maximum overnight use, and if it isn’t full before sundown you can rapidly put in your overnight power.

This means the required battery is less expensive to purchase than the lead-acid equivalent.

ie, i can put 10kwh into my cells in one hour, with lead acid it would take 10 hours.

[nwdiver]

You’ve missed the main advantage LiFePO4 has over Pb - it’s ability to accept rapid charge.

You can have a battery bank slighty larger than your maximum overnight use, and if it isn’t full before sundown you can rapidly put in your overnight power.

This means the required battery is less expensive to purchase than the lead-acid equivalent.

ie, i can put 10kwh into my cells in one hour, with lead acid it would take 10 hours.

I have a 30kWh bank at my house I've been toying with off-grid. I generally only use ~6kWh at night. You can charge a 30kWh bank at 3 - 6kW so I can fully recharge in <2 hours. Even on the rare occasion that I do a 50% DOD cycles that's still ~5 hours to recharge....

The cost of lithium needs to come down before its more economic than PbSO4 for stationary applications. I added 18kWh to my bank for $2500. I'd be lucky to get 4kWh of lithium for that price unless I'm 'dumpster diving' on eBay for old EV batteries (nothing wrong with that). I'd rather have 18kWh I can cycle to 50% than 4kWh I can cycle to 90%.

[tom rickard]

You can charge a 30kwh lead acid bank at 3kw if you want it to last as long as a 3kwh lithium bank charging at 3kw.

I’ve helped a dozen people set up off-grid with LiFePO4 cells, all the systems were less expensive than lead acid when costed over a ten year period.

For your above useage (6kwh overnight), a 10kwh lithium bank would be ideal. Paired with an 8kva genset, worse case scenario would see you run the genset for 45mins/day. With your 18kwh of lead acid, you’d be running the genset for over 3 hours.

I’ve seen too many lead acid batteries destroyed by rapid charging to be interested in an off grid setup that uses over 10kwh per night cycle.

[nwdiver]

For your above useage (6kwh overnight), a 10kwh lithium bank would be ideal.

How much would that 10kWh Li pack cost? Best case seems to be ~$7k unless I'm buying used batteries. For <$3k I can get ~18kWh of Premium PbSO4 that will last >10 years so long as I limit discharge to <50%. Put the $4k in an S&P 500 index fund and buy a fresh set of batteries every 10 years forever

[Ampster]

I can get CALB 200Ahr for $255. That works out to be $4000 for the same usable capacity in a Lithium pack that charges more efficiently and can stay at various SOC without damage.

[SunEagle]

I can get CALB 200Ahr for $255. That works out to be $4000 for the same usable capacity in a Lithium pack that charges more efficiently and can stay at various SOC without damage.

Is that for used CALB or new ones? I guess going with used ones will still work but there is always the chance of getting crap with used batteries.