Is Li-ion now viable for off-grid?

[Sunking]

To many parameters to get exactly right during operation and hassles to deal with using lead-acid. Lithium gets rid of most of the hassles. Once reasonable protection is built in (pre-integrated for most), cost is reasonable, and interface equipment is readily available lead acid will pass. Commercialization of EVs guarantees it. There are multiple pre-integrated protection systems now and better interface equipment should be coming out this year. The value might be there very shortly for integrally protected systems (where off-grid is required), but cost for a non-DIY protected system is still hard for most to handle. It is becoming much easier to design a lithium system that automates protection from self-destruction and still works properly versus lead-acid, but protection is the key and risky if building yourself.

Do not be silly trapping yourself inside a box. You are right, commercial Lithium batteries have BMS, they have to because they are to damn fragile and do not tolerate any kind of abuse. Pb batteries can take all kinds of abuse and require no BMS.

Where you are trapped inside a box and being silly is you can buy a BMS for Pb batteries that can even add water if you are that lazy and ignorant. Case in point. If Lithium batteries were as good as you think they are, every telephone, cellular, data center, 911 Communications, public safety communications, and military systems would be using the. Care to guess why they all use Pb?

EV's, Cell Phones, Laptops, power tools, ect are an exception to the rule for a 2 very good reasons:

1. Specific Energy expressed as Wh/Kg or how much energy per unit of weight
2. Energy Density expressed as Wh/L or how much energy per unit of volume.

Neither of which are required for stationary applications, nor can be justified by the 400 to 800% long term cost that goes with it. Only EV's and other like applications can justify the cost and short term battery life.

To have equal amounts of usable energy; a Pb battery would have to be 4 to 6 time heavier, and 3 to 5 times larger in volume. That 900 pound Lithium battery in an EV would weigh 4000 pounds and as large as a car if Pb were used. If you know anything about physics you would know that would be impossible because it takes a whole lot more energy to move a 4000 pound dead weight than it does 900 pounds. That is why you do not see Lard Ass athletes setting running speed records. They cannot compete. When was the last time you seen a 250 pound Jockey in a horse race?

[adoublee]

You are defending lead acid in a world where it always has a lower lifetime cost than lithium. Even in a stationary application I would rather my battery bank take up less space, be lighter should I decide I want to move it or replace it, not worry about venting...

Sure you could put BMS on Pb, but now your adding that much more cost to a system than already sucks and is already being built into lithium at scale because it HAS to be. Having the BMS also allows things like paralleling strings/banks which is just another no-no with non-BMS Pb.

Military uses it because it is generally superior, not just specific energy or energy density. How about better surge capacity, or immunity to being held at partial state of charge.

Lithium is superior once it is cost effective and safe.

[Sunking]

Lithium is superior once it is cost effective and safe.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that day to come. Right now 400% higher initial cost, and does not last as long as Pb. The BMS is fairly inexpensive and Pb batteries are not known to catch fire and burn down buildings killing the occupants.

Don't paint me anti Lithium dude. I own more lithium batteries in numbers and capacity today than you will ever own in your lifetime. Every one of them are used in special service applications of EV, Test Equipment, Aircraft, and a few hand held radios.

[miahallen]

I'm not seeing the +400% initial cost. In fact, I am seeing Pb being even more expensive considering the cost of importation into Belize.

My 435AH Trojan bank would cost about $3250 shipped to the port + 1.05 for currency conversion + $400 freight on the ship to Belize where I live + $1900 import duties & taxes (35% import duty on FLA into Belize) = about $5700 USD. It provides approx 6KWh if I limit DoD to 30%... (my average nightly use over the past 3 years is about 30% DoD).

The email I posted in the OP shows a quote for a li-ion pack which can supply about 8KWh for $2550 + $495 for BMS + $350 for assembly & testing + $200 for shipping + 1.05% for currency conversion + $150 for freight to Belize + $1250 for import duties & taxes (20% duty on li-ion battery packs). = about $4850 USD total.

So, based on my numbers above, the li-ion is actually cheaper for more usable capacity. Based on this, would you still hold your ground for Pb Sunking?

Now, I plan to oversize the bank a bit to the larger option they offered, or maybe even a 16KWh bank, since cost is not linear, and it should give me more autonomy and more life out of the bank.

I see the fact that these batteries are designed for use in vehicles as a very good thing. If they are designed to withstand the rigors of mobile application, they are sure to be very safe in a non-mobile environment. I have also thought about building an air conditioned battery box to keep the batteries at safe temps in the summer (regardless of the battery technology I use).

[SunEagle]

You are defending lead acid in a world where it always has a lower lifetime cost than lithium. Even in a stationary application I would rather my battery bank take up less space, be lighter should I decide I want to move it or replace it, not worry about venting...

Sure you could put BMS on Pb, but now your adding that much more cost to a system than already sucks and is already being built into lithium at scale because it HAS to be. Having the BMS also allows things like paralleling strings/banks which is just another no-no with non-BMS Pb.

Military uses it because it is generally superior, not just specific energy or energy density. How about better surge capacity, or immunity to being held at partial state of charge.

Lithium is superior once it is cost effective and safe.

The military uses Li because it is lighter and joe citizen pays for it. If it only lasts 6 months who cares. They just purchase a new set.

[SunEagle]

I'm not seeing the +400% initial cost. In fact, I am seeing Pb being even more expensive considering the cost of importation into Belize.

My 435AH Trojan bank would cost about $3250 shipped to the port + 1.05 for currency conversion + $400 freight on the ship to Belize where I live + $1900 import duties & taxes (35% import duty on FLA into Belize) = about $5700 USD. It provides approx 6KWh if I limit DoD to 30%... (my average nightly use over the past 3 years is about 30% DoD).

The email I posted in the OP shows a quote for a li-ion pack which can supply about 8KWh for $2550 + $495 for BMS + $300 for assembly & testing + $200 for shipping + 1.05% for currency conversion + $150 for freight to Belize + $1250 for import duties & taxes (20% duty on li-ion battery packs). = about $5000 USD total.

So, based on my numbers above, the li-ion is actually cheaper for more usable capacity. Based on this, would you still hold your ground for Pb Sunking?

Now, I plan to oversize the bank a bit to the larger option they offered, or maybe even a 16KWh bank, since cost is not linear, and it should give me more autonomy and more life out of the bank.

I see the fact that these batteries are designed for use in vehicles as a very good thing. If they are designed to withstand the rigors of mobile application, they are sure to be very safe in a non-mobile environment. I have also thought about building an air conditioned battery box to keep the batteries at safe temps in the summer (regardless of the battery technology I use).

Look it is your money to do with as you wish. If you want to go to Li battery chemistry then go for it.

If you think it will last longer and will not be any issue then don't listen to us.

It sounds like you already made up you mind before you asked the question. So spend your money and have fun.

[miahallen]

Look it is your money to do with as you wish. If you want to go to Li battery chemistry then go for it.

If you think it will last longer and will not be any issue then don't listen to us.

It sounds like you already made up you mind before you asked the question. So spend your money and have fun.

No need to get sore, I came here to get your opinions. If you give me objections which I prove false, it is not to say I have already made up my mind, I'm just saying the objection doesn't hold water. My question is, do you stand by your recommendations if price is about equal? I would agree with you if it were +400% price increase, as I simply wouldn't be able to afford it.

[adoublee]

The military uses Li because it is lighter and joe citizen pays for it. If it only lasts 6 months who cares. They just purchase a new set.

6 months from Li and 10+ years from Pb...I hope this is sarcasm.

Lithium is now in the solar distribution channel where Pb has never been. Just shows lithium being commercialized. It will be the long life tech for folks without an MSEE.

[SunEagle]

No need to get sore, I came here to get your opinions. If you give me objections which I prove false, it is not to say I have already made up my mind, I'm just saying the objection doesn't hold water. My question is, do you stand by your recommendations if price is about equal? I would agree with you if it were +400% price increase, as I simply wouldn't be able to afford it.

If you can find the correct battery for the application and it happens to be Li chemistry and it is cost effective then I agree it would be attractive to try out.

If I was worried about spending my money on something that could have an early death or fail with a bright flash and a bang I would think twice.

While SK may have provide some info on the cost and viability of using Li batteries he (and others) is not yet convinced they are worth the trouble. Great deals can always be found but in general the costs for Li chemistry batteries and charging systems or higher and more complex then for Pb chemistry.

[SunEagle]

6 months from Li and 10+ years from Pb...I hope this is sarcasm.

Lithium is now in the solar distribution channel where Pb has never been. Just shows lithium being commercialized. It will be the long life tech for folks without an MSEE.

Sighhhh. In general most people (including the military) will not get years of usage from Li type batteries because they will end up discharging them past the safe low levels and abuse them.

Making Li batteries cheaper and faster acting has resulted in some pretty interesting fireworks. Cell phones, hover boards, laptops, electronic cigs, to name a few have gone up in flames. Yes you can build quality Li batteries but at what cost and with what life time.

Name a laptop battery or a cell phone that is used by most people that like to stream video that really lasts more than 3 years? None do because Li batteries while small and high energy still do not have the high cycle count needed to last as long as what someone with an off grid system wants.

Li is mostly used in electronics. And people get bored with electronics and upgrade quickly way before the battery dies.

As for electric cars, I wonder how many of the early EV batteries are in a junk pile due to over usage?

[adoublee]

If I was worried about spending my money on something that could have an early death or fail with a bright flash and a bang I would think twice.

miahallen - To qualify my statements in favor of Lithium as a class of tech, I do think you should think long and hard about products that have gone through a level of professional evaluation/integration versus these products you are seeing on ebay. I'm not sure I would consider your prices as an apples to apples comparison based on the fact that lithium does need a higher level of protection than Pb. Please consider keeping these thing a distance from your residence in case they go up or instead look at the more costly purpose-built systems.

[SunEagle]

miahallen - To qualify my statements in favor of Lithium as a class of tech, I do think you should think long and hard about products that have gone through a level of professional evaluation/integration versus these products you are seeing on ebay. I'm not sure I would consider your prices as an apples to apples comparison based on the fact that lithium does need a higher level of protection than Pb. Please consider keeping these thing a distance from your residence in case they go up or instead look at the more costly purpose-built systems.

+1. I agree. Lithium is a very powerful energy source. It needs respect and has to have an eye kept on it especially during charging.

[adoublee]

Sighhhh. In general most people (including the military) will not get years of usage from Li type batteries because they will end up discharging them past the safe low levels and abuse them.

Essentially the same with Pb if done regularly, and electronics can protect Li from this treatment. Do you think EVs allow the battery to be drained to zero and bricked or overcharged? Cell phones? Grid-connected lithium energy storage systems? I'm not talking about DIY CALB systems and the like.

Making Li batteries cheaper and faster acting has resulted in some pretty interesting fireworks. Cell phones, hover boards, laptops, electronic cigs, to name a few have gone up in flames. Yes you can build quality Li batteries but at what cost and with what life time.

It's as much a function of how many of them are being used as it is the cheap electronics going into the hover boards, vapes, and crappy phones.

Name a laptop battery or a cell phone that is used by most people that like to stream video that really lasts more than 3 years?

Uhh, iphone. And it's variant of lithium wasn't designed for a very high cycle life.

As for electric cars, I wonder how many of the early EV batteries are in a junk pile due to over usage?

GM will have an 8-year/100K mile warranty on the Bolt, with 10%-40% degradation in that period (and most believe 40% highly unlikely with regular use). Not terrible.

[miahallen]

BTW - when I asked EV Battery Center about warranty, this was the reply:

We offer warranty, but depends of the product - if is a assembled battery with all protections BMS and installed in enclosed aluminum box - up to 3 years. If is a assembled pack with base BMS - up to one year - parts warranty. If is DIY - parts only - not assembled - 1 Year for the BMS, few months for batteries only if defective cell. We sell these batteries for 5 years already and beside the human mistakes when using them. Very rare to have defective cell, actually I never seen, but assume is possible. Of course the capacity will go down - the newest generations are much better. For a year here in Vegas at high heat - a battery lost 4%-5% for year.

I will plan to buy it with the case and everything for the full protection.

I also appreciate the warning about explosive failures. I think I would need to locate the batteries in my shed out back (detached by about 30ft from the house), just in case. So, I'm sorting through the logistics (wiring) necessary for that, which I had not yet pondered in detail.

[SunEagle]

GM will have an 8-year/100K mile warranty on the Bolt, with 10%-40% degradation in that period (and most believe 40% highly unlikely with regular use). Not terrible.

I am hoping the Bolt (being a newer generation EV) will have, not only longer lasting batteries but be even more customer friendly then the earlier EV's like the first generation Leaf, Fiat, Tesla and other no name EV's that quickly died

I expect Li chemistry to get better and maybe one day become a way for the homeowner to store excess energy from their pv system. But not now or IMO for the near future. Let the EV industry work out the bugs. The electronic companies (like Samsung) haven't.

I look forward to new battery technology but it is not yet cost effective or in my mind as safe as it should be for the general public than doesn't know better about charging their damn electronics because they place them on flammable materials. Stupid is as stupid does.