LifePO4 GBS Amp Hour Testing 2.5v to 3.6v per cell

[Sunking]

I left it alone trying to learn stuff until I saw something inaccurate with respect to a subject I may actually know something about. Simply commenting on your prior inaccurate statements with respect to the Carnot cycle and perhaps helping others avoid getting it as wrong as you seem to have it.

No worries JPM. DAX is so far off the mark with Lithium batteries it is funny and making a fool of himself. My God he does not even know what floating a battery is. Even mechanics know what that means.

[Sunking]

Is the 1% voltage sag rule from "Sunking's Little Red Rule Book". Which rule number is it? Maybe you could give some technical reasons for it.

Like you said Simon you sell cheap POS CHO-Com junk and are no engineer. It is called Engineering 101 basic way above your head keeping track of numbers, controlling losses. Every loss in any engineered system is accounted for, planned for, and minimized. All electrical codes call for no more than 5% losses from head to toe. Battery gets a generous 1% of that 5% and even Solar For Dummies call for 1%. Guess you have note read much about what you do.

[dax]

Just because Peltier coolers do not consume much of the day's production (if you count a couple KWh as incidental) does not make them more efficient.

I've seen dozens of destroyed Peltier devices from unequal torque on the mounts and many others fail from poor thermal coupling to the hot & cold sinks.
I actually suspect that many of your Peltier coolers are ineffective after being cycled for 6 months, because it's really hard to perfectly make the environmental sandwich that they need to have a long lifetime, unless you purchase them as a pre-fab assembly from a specialty vendor.
I'd bet a nickel that just a dozen watts of forced air circulation will out perform the Peltier coolers in a LFP battery pack. But we'll never know because you "cant disclose anything".

With respect, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and it's clear none of you have real experience in lifepo4 off grid. The ridiculous negative claims you all come up with is hilarious, especially when you make them with no working knowledge, just last century lead acid crap. To me it's pathetic elitism at work coming from those desperate to be right, so grasp at non existent straws and sink along with them.

I've revealed just about everything about our system, in plain english. If you can't work out what and how we do it from simple language, then you will never grasp the concept or operational methodology of using lifepo4. no mater what you all claim, they are nothing like lead acid, in charge and usage regimes, reliability and performance. Not prepared to reveal the electronic controls we use, as they are why we keep ahead of the pack and couldn't describe them any way, that's our engineers task. All i do is put forward an idea and they work out if they can get it to work, if so we make a prototype and see how it goes.. Got a few boxes of things that didn't work, have habit of getting ideas constantly, they say it's because I'm a lateral thinker what ever that is.

Do you really think we would use peltiers without proper setups, like heat sinks, fans and controls, if so you really are digging deep into the depths of denial. None of our systems would use a couple of KWH using a peltiers, how about 300-500w at the most and that would be the highest in a desert region. What you don't seem to grasp is, our systems are designed to maintain a certain temperature range, all peltiers do is keep it that way and use very little energy. Thirty seconds either way is enough to maintain the pack at best operating temp for may hours. if you've seen lots of badly setup peltiers, then you are working with those who don't have a clue. Got a peltier cooler in my truck which I built as a experiment to see how they worked and the amount of energy they use, to see if we could use them to control energy packs and that was before we got into lifepo4 and still used lead acid. it's been in use for getting on 10 years and still operates perfectly, even moved it into the new truck because it did such a good job of keeping our food cool whilst we worked and it looks crap.

None of our systems that use peltiers have had any problems, so you can be as negative as you want. We make a lot of money from these system and don't have to advertise at all. Don't worry to much, we get the same from our competitors, but it's the customer that counts and as we've been putting in off grid for almost 40 years. Will back my working knowledge and understanding against any suppose expert. The definition of an expert I like is, "X" is an unknown quantity and spurt is a big drip.

[karrak]

Like you said Simon you sell cheap POS CHO-Com junk and are no engineer.

This is your fantasy.

Every loss in any engineered system is accounted for, planned for, and minimized.

Any mininisation of losses have to be done in a cost effective manner.

All electrical codes call for no more than 5% losses from head to toe.

I think you are talking about the Mains AC supply, the voltage losses have to be controlled here to make sure that all equipment that is plugged into the mains will work properly. Most 12V inverters used in battery based systems will work down to 10.5V, at least a 1.5V or 12.5% drop in voltage.

Battery gets a generous 1% of that 5% and even Solar For Dummies call for 1%. Guess you have note read much about what you do.

Using 1% rule on battery voltage sag, your batteries are only good for 20 amps (C/5) or 1/10th what you want.

Only solar design by real dummies would suggest increasing the size of the most expensive component in the system by a factor of 10 to fit in with some overly simplistic design formula. I think that Dax is correct when he says that you are living in the last century, or your design methodology is from the last century. The 1% rule might have had some merit when solar panels were more than ten times the price they are now.

Simon

[SunEagle]

Not knowing what you pay per ah for lifepo4 in the USA, can't comment. The majority of our residential customers get their money back within 5 years, based on grid connect costs. Some do better and commercial installations very quickly, the majority are all off grid diesel driven and get their costs back within the first year with the cost of diesel here.

I believe you hit the nail on the head considering the differences between the US and Aus. Most of the power generation is low cost coal or natural gas compared to your high cost diesel fuel. And the consumer price average from the POCO is about $0.10/kWh across the US compared to what I hear much higher in Aus. The reliability is also pretty good here in most of the US except for remote places in the North East like Maine or North West Mountains.

The price per Ah for a lifepo4 battery may be higher here. So with the lower electric costs and the higher Ah costs it makes the payback much longer and much harder to justify here in the US.

[Sunking]

Only solar design by real dummies would suggest increasing the size of the most expensive component in the system by a factor of 10 to fit in with some overly simplistic design formula. I think that Dax is correct when he says that you are living in the last century, or your design methodology is from the last century. The 1% rule might have had some merit when solar panels were more than ten times the price they are now.

You already know for fact DAX is an impostor. Even you know what a Floating a battery means. Dax cannot comprehend simple math and cannot understand.

[Sunking]

I think you are talking about the Mains AC supply, the voltage losses have to be controlled here to make sure that all equipment that is plugged into the mains will work properly. Most 12V inverters used in battery based systems will work down to 10.5V, at least a 1.5V or 12.5% drop in voltage.




Only solar design by real dummies would suggest increasing the size of the most expensive component in the system by a factor of 10 to fit in with some overly simplistic design formula. I think that Dax is correct when he says that you are living in the last century, or your design methodology is from the last century. The 1% rule might have had some merit when solar panels were more than ten times the price they are now.

Well this proves you do not understand a thing about simple design guidelines. Only you and Dax would suggest a battery 10 times to large to do the job, not me. I would choose a battery capable of the objective. For starters if Jesse insisted on 12 volt 100 AH LFP and I did say up front use a CALB 12 volt 100 AH battery as it is far supperior with 1/3 the Ri. I know Ri is above your knowledge level but is extremely important to how a battery is going to be have. Not only superior, but less expensive.

For about the same price with performance that exceeds both the CALB and GBS would have been a Concorde 12 volt 150 AH AGM battery which can discharge up to 4C to maintain that 1% SAG. Another would be Odyssey AGM Batteries.

Now I can understand why you Aussies use CHI-COM junk batteries, you cannot good USA made Pb or Li batteries. Your country does not make good batteries, so you have to settle for sloppy seconds. I get it. But you and Dax do not know enough to be answering any questions as you do not understand the basic fundamentals. Neither of you can even understand Ohm's Law. If you did, you would know I am right. We are all laughing....

[dax]

Where do you get these insane delusions from, quote where I have suggested an energy pack 10 times larger than required to do a job. You make up the most insane lies I've ever seen, especially as you have no knowledge about anything, out side your very small window of experience, very simple inadequate programming and have probably never been outside your country. It's drop kicks like you that make it difficult for those looking for understanding of this new technology and all you can do is abuse, pathologically lie and have the brain dead audacity to try to change the meanings of world accepted meanings to suit yourself.

If you were on an Aus forum they'd have thrown you out years ago, we don't stand for morons, who abuse, lie and make pathetic infantile claims. Yet you have no experience or knowledge in the manufacture and use of off grid lifepo4 systems in any way, which further proves the state of your lack of veracity. But when you look at the state and beliefs of your country, it's understandable and I feel so sorry for the decent people in the USA being brought down by low life like you.

[Sunking]

very simple inadequate programming and have probably never been outside your country. It's drop kicks like you that make it difficult for those looking for understanding of this new technology and all you can do is abuse, pathologically lie and have the brain dead audacity to try to change the meanings of world accepted meanings to suit yourself.

Let's see I live in Panama, currently in Rio watching the games as a consultant Engineer,, and travel the world.

If you were on an Aus forum they'd have thrown you out years ago, we don't stand for morons, who abuse, lie and make pathetic infantile claims. .

Who wants to break the news to Dax this is an Austailian Owned and Operated and SK has the majority of the tutorial Stickies and write solar practices for industry. Geez dude you do not even know what Floating a battery means.

[SunEagle]

Let's see I live in Panama, currently in Rio watching the games as a consultant Engineer,, and travel the world.




Who wants to break the news to Dax this is an Austailian Owned and Operated and SK has the majority of the tutorial Stickies and write solar practices for industry. Geez dude you do not even know what Floating a battery means.

Isn't that the opposite of a boat anchor?

[smily03]

dax -- from reading this and other posts -- could you please give us details about your company and products, rather than alluding to them? A lot of the confusion, conflict, and doubt could be eliminated if you just gave links to product literature, a website, a name, something. Without something to go off of beyond words in a forum, we don't know you from Joe Schmoe from Timbuktu. I'm not trying to be arrogant, or rude, or mistrustful, or anything like that, but all the vagueness and obscurity just makes it seem like you're trying to hide something.

[dax]

Then you haven't read my posts as you claim, I've already pointed out we have no website, simply because we don't need one. All our custom comes from word of mouth referrals and all the details of our systems, except the controlling electronics has been revealed. My kids keep hassling me for a website, but we had one 3 years ago and it was a waste of money, that got us no orders and as we don't retail, no need. No way would reveal what keeps us growing our business, we like to be in front and those ridiculing me, are simple revealing where their mentality really lies and the veracity of their claims.

As for floating a battery, there is nowhere I can find anywhere on the net that agrees with sunking that a battery disconnected from charge is classed as floating. It is inly floating when a charge is input to compensate for the natural and dramatic lose you find in lead acid. Making that claim would mean every battery not connected to a charge, is floating even if it sat for 3 years. When the facts are it is discharging and can only float with a compensating charge to maintain it is used.

Lifepo4 in the first 5 years used properly, lose nothing and after 8 years, in our experience, loses just under 1%. Try leaving a lead acid battery sitting off charge and see what you end up with, dead. Unless you are using hot air o maintain it, just like sunkings brain

[dax]

Who wants to break the news to Dax this is an Austailian Owned and Operated and SK has the majority of the tutorial Stickies and write solar practices for industry. Geez dude you do not even know what Floating a battery means.

Yet everything on this site is in the USA including suppliers. Nothing Aus about anything here.

[karrak]

Without something to go off of beyond words in a forum, we don't know you from Joe Schmoe from Timbuktu. I'm not trying to be arrogant, or rude, or mistrustful, or anything like that, but all the vagueness and obscurity just makes it seem like you're trying to hide something.

How do you know that what Sunking is saying is truthful and correct and that he understands what he is commenting on? Unless you have a technical understanding of what he is writing about you don't. You take it on good faith that he is not lying to you and does know what he is talking about.

I have got far more useful information from posts by Dax, Barba and Steve G Willy T and others on other forums who have experience with LFP batteries in off-grid systems and don't have an axe to grind than from anything that Sunking has posted. Dax, like me and others who have swapped from lead acid or aging nickel cadmium batteries in their off-grid systems to LFP batteries understand just how much better LFP batteries are.

Simon

Off grid 24V system, 6x190W Solar Panels, 32x90ah Winston LiFeYPO4 batteries installed April 2013
BMS - Homemade Battery logger github.com/simat/BatteryMonitor
Latronics 4kW Inverter, homemade MPPT controller

[smily03]

dax -- from reading this and other posts

I never said that I read all of your posts. Just other posts...



Dude, I'm not trying to attack you. I'm just saying -- from the stuff I have read, you haven't done anything but spout numbers and claims about your experiences and systems and word-of-mouth customers, but haven't backed any of your claims with hard data - no charts, graphs, pictures, logs, websites, newspaper/magazine articles, nothing :/ If I'm wrong and have missed them, please show me, don't just chop me down and call me ignorant. Put yourself in my shoes - would you trust what you're saying based on the amount of third-party-verifiable data that you've provided?

You could be totally legit and on the cutting edge of the technology. But for what it's worth, I could just as easily say that I have a ton of customers and this amazing system, but without something to back it - something - anything - it's just words. So please forgive me for being skeptical, but I don't know you from Joe Schmoe.