Tenergy batteries

[DanKegel]

This test is impressive guys!!!

Please don't post screenshots without linking to the original source.

It looks like that's a screenshot of http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/post/140...est-laboratory
The graph there is identical to a graph from a 2007 presentation
"Overview on current status of lithium-Ion batteries
Andreas Jossen, Zentrum für Sonnenenergie- und Wasserstoff-Forschung BW, Germany"

https://web.archive.org/web/20130602031746/http://www.lifepo4.info/Battery_study/Batteries/Overview_on_current_status_of_lithium-Ion_batteries.pdf

That 2007 presentation doesn't say what battery was being tested.

[Sunking]

Please don't post screenshots without linking to the original source.

It looks like that's a screenshot of http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/post/140...est-laboratory
The graph there is identical to a graph from a 2007 presentation
"Overview on current status of lithium-Ion batteries
Andreas Jossen, Zentrum für Sonnenenergie- und Wasserstoff-Forschung BW, Germany"
https://web.archive.org/web/20130602..._batteries.pdf

That 2007 presentation doesn't say what battery was being tested.

Well I will be damned. I actually agree with you.

As you noted it is a accelerated test done in one year. After one year the batteries were toast. Accelerated test means nothing. That is why test standards like IEC 61426 were developed to test Solar PV batteries under real life conditions. Anything else is Lip Service.

[Barba]

Sunking those are industrial energy storage, i am out of italy at the moment and i saved the links for bosch solar energy for homes in another ipad i have not with me. I domt understand why u should call me liar, do i remind anybody that abused u when u were a child?

[Sunking]

Sunking those are industrial energy storage, i am out of italy at the moment and i saved the links for bosch solar energy for homes in another ipad i have not with me. I domt understand why u should call me liar , do i remind anybody that abused u when u were a child?

Because you are a liar or delusional. Which is it?.

Neither their Consumer or Industrial battery products carry 25 years. 5 years at most if you pay extra for it. Plain and simple, you lied and got caught red handed.
I already provided the links for everyone to see for both Consumer and Industrial products from Bosch. Only batteries you will find with 10 years or more warranty are lead acid, and there are very few of them. Almost none tested to IEC 61426.

Industrial line is much higher quality than consumer, and they only imply 10 years calendar life EXPECTED, Consumer is 3 years standard warranty, and 5 years optional at extra cost. Plain and simple anyone can understand.

Trust me, their are folks here who would love to prove me wrong and trying their hardest to find any such links to Bosch to post here. But it will never happen, no such thing exist.

[Barba]

There was no need to insult me, i feel sorry they ride u hard

[Sunking]

There was no need to insult me

You started it and asked for it. Quit lying.

I do not have any bones to pick with Lithium batteries. I have a problem with the hype and lies behind them. A really big problem with folks who come here and perpetuate th elies nad hype and convince unknowing people into diving into something they have no knowledge of.

Fact is lithium is not ready for off-Grid Solar systems. The economics do not work. The only Lithium cells most folks have access to are Chi-Coms that were introduced in 2008. Since that time they have have had to change their names and identities several times. Why? Because they suck. All started with Thundersky. The went belly up in 2010 and were broken into three companies. CALB, Winston, and Sinopoly which is failing as we speak. Winston has gone under again and now calls themselves Voltronix. Why? Because they suck. CALB is the best of them and since they started have gone through 3 revisions. Why? Because they suck, but at least they try to honor their crappy 2 year warranty backed by the Chinese government which is going bankrupt. Like it or not Chi-Com owned companies suck.

Consumers cannot access high quality Lithium batteries. Not directly. That is where Bosch and others come in with a packaged product like Tesla. But instead of costing 50-cent per watt hour, now goes up to $2 to $5 per watt hours. Even if they offered a ten year warranty is not worth it.

Economically Lithium batteries only work in the Laptop, Power Tools, Cell Phones, Medical, and Electric Vehicle markets. Why? Because they can justify the cost of needing the high energy density offered by lithium and take the risk. High energy density is not a requirement for off-grid systems. As of today Lead acid out performs, and is lower cost, and safer to implement for consumer off grid systems. At half the price you get better performance and last a lot longer over Chi-Coms. Commercial systems using quality LFP batteries cannot even come close.

That is what people need to know to make a purchase decision, not hype and lies. Pb has over a 100 year track history with proven documented performance. Lithium does not even have a good 10 year history yet. Why? Because they are not far enough along or had the time to prove themselves. So far all claims have been proven FALSE.

So when you say 25 year warranty, I and everyone knows you are lying. I will not allow you to get away with it.

[Bala]

battery tech other than lead acid is of interest to me as mine are 10 years old, so due for replacement at any time, or hopefully a few more years.

if you google enough for bosch, and I gave up, you may find 25 year panel warranties, I found expected battery life in hybrid of up to 25 years but best I could find for battery warranty was 5 years.

http://www.tritec-energy.com/en/storage-systems/bosch-bpt-s-5-hybrid-solar-inverter-with-integrated-battery-c-197/

Another factor for me is that my most common ambient temp is around 30c and high humidity, I have not found anything that says LFP like higher temps.

Not that my lead batteries like the temp, I need to add water a lot, but they have been reliable.

[Bala]

Battery tech other than lead is of interest to me as mine are ten years old.

I found and added a link but the post was blocked i assume because of the link.

I found panel warranty of 25 years, Bosch battery life expected of up to 25 years,

The link I had posted showed battery life of up to 15 years, warranty of 5 years

I have not read to much good about LFP in higher temps. As my normal ambient temp is around 30c and high humidity it does not seem to suit LFP.

lead has been reliable just need to add water weekly

[Barba]

The link which i dont have here with me at the momemt is from bosch. Its not a battery but its like a fridge dimension wise.its a battery and an inverter all together.
The useful capacity was quite small , in the region of 15 kwh if i dont remember wrong. Regarding sunking i really e truly believe u dont know what u r talking about. I specificly remember in another post when i specificly ask u a question which u deliberatly didn t answer. I start to think u work for trojan. Speaking of which the links u posted are from trojan themselfs. I might be a troll or not, u too. The only thing that matter is to experience everything by urself. I come from trojan myself and i if i compare winston with trojan i can say i am more than happy. U sunking never had the experience i had.so i domt let u get away with it neither.

[DanKegel]

if you google enough for bosch, and I gave up, you may find 25 year panel warranties, I found expected battery life in hybrid of up to 25 years but best I could find for battery warranty was 5 years.

http://www.bosch-power-tec.com/en/bpte/produkte/storage_solutions/bpt_s_5_hybrid/vs_5_hybrid

lists basic warranty of 5 years, but offers an extended warranty to 10 or 15 years, and claims 18 year expected life. And yes, it looks like a fridge.

[SunEagle]

http://www.bosch-power-tec.com/en/bpte/produkte/storage_solutions/bpt_s_5_hybrid/vs_5_hybrid

lists basic warranty of 5 years, but offers an extended warranty to 10 or 15 years, and claims 18 year expected life. And yes, it looks like a fridge.

I am not sure why your post was unapproved but I made the change

[SunEagle]

The link which i dont have here with me at the momemt is from bosch. Its not a battery but its like a fridge dimension wise.its a battery and an inverter all together.
The useful capacity was quite small , in the region of 15 kwh if i dont remember wrong. Regarding sunking i really e truly believe u dont know what u r talking about. I specificly remember in another post when i specificly ask u a question which u deliberatly didn t answer. I start to think u work for trojan. Speaking of which the links u posted are from trojan themselfs. I might be a troll or not, u too. The only thing that matter is to experience everything by urself. I come from trojan myself and i if i compare winston with trojan i can say i am more than happy. U sunking never had the experience i had.so i domt let u get away with it neither.

As far as I know Sunking does not work for any battery manufacturer. Although he probably has more hands on experience with batteries than most of the people here in this forum.

I like Trojan batteries for a couple of reasons. They have been around a long time and have produced high quality batteries for pretty good prices. Since Winston have not been around as long I would have a small amount of skepticism but would not rule them out as not being a good product. But to claim they are the best of the best would IMO be an overstated claim.

[karrak]

Well let's use a real model. Start with a Trojan IND9-6V 464 AH battery. These batteries are verified and tested to IEC 61427 standard. The standard is not a accelerated test, it is real life, real application proven. It is not a model of 100% charging, it is Partial State of Charge meaning the batteries are never ever fully charged. Real as it gets.

More absolute rubbish. IEC 61427 is an accelerated test and it is not real life. Each major test cycle of IEC 61427 as described by Trojan is supposed to represent one year of real life use takes around 46 days. It is based on a model which assumes that doing 50 charge/discharge cycles between a SOC of between 10%to 40% and 100 charge/discharge cycles between a SOC of 100% to 75% at a temperature of 40C^o is the same as one year of normal off-grid use.

Now real life is Barba's over six year use of Winston LFP batteries, steveg's 6 years use of an LFP battery in an off-grid system, or my experience of around 3 years use of Winston LFP batteries in two off-grid systems. The common theme with all these systems is that we have not noticed any change in the operation of these batteries over the time we have had them.

Simon

Off grid 24V system, 6x190W Solar Panels, 32x90ah Winston LiFeYPO4 batteries installed April 2013
BMS - Homemade Battery logger
Latronics 4kW Inverter, homemade MPPT controller

[DanKegel]

As far as I know Sunking does not work for any battery manufacturer. Although he probably has more hands on experience with batteries than most of the people here in this forum.

SunKing appears to be an authentic expert on lead-acid batteries. He likes Trojan, with good reason. They're great, but they're not for people who want to buy a system and forget it. That's the target market for the lithium battery folks. The jury is still out on the current crop of lithium house batteries, but they're riding a huge wave of experience (laptop -> phone -> car), and 3000 cycles seems practical. Caveat emptor - you can't assume any particular vendor has their **** together. I'm going to let the early adopters take a bullet or two before making the plunge.

[SunEagle]

SunKing appears to be an authentic expert on lead-acid batteries. He likes Trojan, with good reason. They're great, but they're not for people who want to buy a system and forget it. That's the target market for the lithium battery folks. The jury is still out on the current crop of lithium house batteries, but they're riding a huge wave of experience (laptop -> phone -> car), and 3000 cycles seems practical. Caveat emptor - you can't assume any particular vendor has their **** together. I'm going to let the early adopters take a bullet or two before making the plunge.

I agree the Lithium battery technology will be the future of energy storage for solar. But regardless of what some people have stated about their experience the damn things as still way too expensive to use unless you are paying thru the nose for your electricity.

So maybe FLA is going out and being replaced by Lithium tech but those Winstons do not seem like an effective way to reduce mine or most of the US home electric costs.

Even that 8.8kWh rated Bosch system would have to cost less than $5000 for someone to justify it even if it did last for 25 years only using 50% DOD.

Energy storage with batteries is going to happen but the prices will have to come way down for most people.