Tenergy batteries

[SunEagle]

I made a good post, but it is being blocked. Mods take a look and approve please.

It is the damn 3 links your out software. I approved it.

[Sunking]

I made a good post, but it is being blocked. Mods take a look and approve please.

[Sunking]

Extrafu be careful. All claims about Chi-Com LFP batteries are complete fabrication and no data to support it. Chi-Com's started with Thundersky and quickly went Bankrupt. Why? Warranty Claims. Who are they now? Winston and Sinopoly and CALB. In 9 short years over 4 revisions. Why? Because they are still having issues.

Folks like you and I do not have access to quality Lithium batteries. The few we can access will cost you $2 or more per watt hour. Batteries have 2 Life Spans. 1 Is cycles, and the second is Calendar life. Whichever comes first. What is Calendar life? Simple answer the warranty period. It is that simple. Now look at the Chi-Com Warranty? What do you see. 1 or 2 years right?

Now lets talk about sizing requirements. For FLA you size for 20% per day, and 33% for LFP. Both give you the same 3 day autonomy. So for a 100 AH FLA requires a 75 AH LFP to be equal. Which is the better long term investment?

Well let's use a real model. Start with a Trojan IND9-6V 464 AH battery. These batteries are verified and tested to IEC 61427 standard. The standard is not a accelerated test, it is real life, real application proven. It is not a model of 100% charging, it is Partial State of Charge meaning the batteries are never ever fully charged. Real as it gets. Here is the Bottom Line. Trojans Premium Line is 1600 Cycle to 50% DOD and 5 year warranty. Industrial Line is 2800 cycle at 50% DOD with 8 year warranty. In a year there are 300 cycles, so the real use data jives with both cycle and calendar life. . Very few batteries are tested to IEC 61427 because it is a Real World test not many batteries can stand up to. Look at it yourself, Trojans INDV line is a 15 year battery.

So back to the model. Using Trojan IND9-6V you Kwh cost is $244 or 24 cents per Watt Hour. That is a solid 8 year battery. A Trojan Premium Line like a LR16RE-B is a 6 volt 370 AH battery that cost $162 per Kwh or 16-cents per Watt Hour. The LR16 is a solid 5-year battery.

Now I will let you do the rest on LFP. But here is what you are going to find. At best 2 year warranty at $500 per Kwh or 50-cents per watt hour. Now some folks are going to squak and say LFP last 10 years. Don't believe a word of it. To date not one Chi-Com has ever done it , documented, or had any meaningful testing from 3rd party agencies to back it up. None will dare to put their product up to be tested to IES 61427 the international standard for RE batteries. Just lip service.

So be careful

[Barba]

If u see the graphic I have posted u can see 100 % DOD u get 3000 cycles.
Even if u do 80% DOD u still get 5000 cycles.
That would be much cheaper then FLA with the same cycles at the same DOD( which is impossible) because if u go down that far in the DOD of ur very good FLA and if u don't recharge IMMIDIATLY after discharge u will start to loose all ur thousands of cycles.
Apples with apples guys
If u have batteries that cannot work with PSOC it's useless to talk cycles life because u r not comparing apples with apples.
I don't know if LIFEPO4 is really the best but I can say that any battery that works with PSOC that is the way to go.
I say again 6 years of my experience which probably 3 years were spent in PSOC for long weeks in the winter in the down SOC mid 20s , with your LFA u will not see the summer after no matter the brand u use.
If u use a generator then is a different story but then u r not comparing apples with apples.

[extrafu]

Looks like Winston has updated quite recently their battery specs: http://en.winston-battery.com/index....ry/lyp-battery

All batteries are now rated 5,000 cycles @ 80% DOD and 7,000 cycles @ 70% DOD.

If true, that is quite impressive.

[SunEagle]

Suneagle and extrafu my experience with Winston 300 ah:
6 years after usage and 500 cycles at 80% DOD at 30 degrees Celsius @ 0,5 C and 16000 microcycles the batteries had the tag capacity and I stop discharging beyond 300 ah. I could go farther but I didn't want to go.
Even the best Lead acid battery couldn't stand a winter at Psoc like I did.
For me there is no reason in buying lead acid battery because the cycles are based if you recharge IMMIDIATLY after a discharge!
In a solar application lead acid DOESNT WORK!
I have had people saying they had lead acid battery for the last 7-8 years but then they forgot to say they use a generator when the battery goes down 30/40%.
We have to compare apples with apples.
If u are offgrid the only way u can go is with lifepo4.
Because there is not point in buying batteries and a generator to recharge them!
If u design the system very well, LIFEPO4 is the only way.
Plus read my attachment on my previous page u will be shocked, I guarantee!

While I understand you feel LiFEPO4 batteries are the best and only way to go. I would say that is your opinion based on your experience but not necessarily the correct answer.

There have been a lot of people that have gone off grid with different battery chemistries including FLA. There are also a number of newer Li type batteries that are claimed to be long lasting and have high energy density. So I wouldn't say only one type of battery chemistry if the way to go.

I try to keep an open mind and continue to look at all new and old types. But as of today while most of the Li chemistry seem to last longer and have higher energy density they also cost much more than the best FLA batteries.

So while you feel LiFEPO4 is the only way to go I still say they are still too expensive for myself as well as the majority of the people that want to use as an energy storage system. Maybe in the future but not now unless you can show me where to get them for the same or lower price than high quality FLA.

[Barba]

Suneagle and extrafu my experience with Winston 300 ah:
6 years after usage and 500 cycles at 80% DOD at 30 degrees Celsius @ 0,5 C and 16000 microcycles the batteries had the tag capacity and I stop discharging beyond 300 ah. I could go farther but I didn't want to go.
Even the best Lead acid battery couldn't stand a winter at Psoc like I did.
For me there is no reason in buying lead acid battery because the cycles are based if you recharge IMMIDIATLY after a discharge!
In a solar application lead acid DOESNT WORK!
I have had people saying they had lead acid battery for the last 7-8 years but then they forgot to say they use a generator when the battery goes down 30/40%.
We have to compare apples with apples.
If u are offgrid the only way u can go is with lifepo4.
Because there is not point in buying batteries and a generator to recharge them!
If u design the system very well, LIFEPO4 is the only way.
Plus read my attachment on my previous page u will be shocked, I guarantee!

[SunEagle]

From what I understand, this battery is rated 1000Ah at 20 hours rate, so if you want to keep that 4000 cycles lifespan, the optimal discharge current shouldn't be more than 50A. The LiFePO4 battery is C/2 but you can even get 3C from it. The 4000 cycles at 20% is nice, but the LiFePO4 batteries will get you 3000 at 70% DOD while you'll have 1250 cycles with the Trojan batteries at 70% DOD. LiFePO4 batteries will get you 2000 at 80% DOD while you'll have 1000 cycles with the Trojan batteries at 80% DOD.

The optimal DOD for the Trojan is 50%, giving you ~1600 cycles. If the LiFePO4 batteries give you 3000 cycles at 70%, one might need to replace the Trojan batteries a lot quicker than the LiFePO4 batteries.

I initially had in mind using 16 x 400Ah CALB LiFePO4 batteries (in series) but Sunking and others have convinced me that smaller cells are preferable, with a parallel configuration. So I'll probably go with 32 x 180Ah or even 48 x 180Ah in 16S2P or 16S3P.

I have no doubt that flooded batteries cost less than LiFePO4 ones when we purely look at the Ah. I guess we have to factor other things, like the optimal discharge current, the optimal charging current (which is very important to maximize solar panels power production), the maintenance, ventilation, how much you can abuse the batteries, etc.

Please do NOT think I'm trying to convince anyone LiFePO4 is the way to go. I am still learning and I have *zero* experience right now. That is why I am posting questions in this forum, to get educated and make smart decisions when it comes to my project and so far you guys have all been awesome.

Thanks!

I also do not want to push people away from LiFePO4 technology. It may be the right way to go. There are a number of ways to build a battery system and the LiFe may now be breaking through into a new and better place.

But I would caution to anyone reading these posts to do the research before you spend the money.

Since Trojan has been in the business for decades, I believe they have engineered their products to provide pretty much what they say it will.

How long has the Thunder Sky Winston been in business and will their product outshine existing battery technology? Maybe they will but is it WORTH THE COST?

That is the million dollar question. Like you I do not have the answer but will continue to look for a low cost energy storage system.

[extrafu]

I expect that does not include the shipping or the BMS.

It would cost me about $2200 plus shipping for a 6 x 2 volt 1000Ah Trojan L16RE batteries rated for 4000 cycles at 20% discharge as opposed to needing at least 4 of those 1000Ah Winston's at $5200 total plus shipping and BMS charging equipment for a system that gets you 5000 cycles at 20% discharge.

Somehow that doesn't add up to me.

From what I understand, this battery is rated 1000Ah at 20 hours rate, so if you want to keep that 4000 cycles lifespan, the optimal discharge current shouldn't be more than 50A. The LiFePO4 battery is C/2 but you can even get 3C from it. The 4000 cycles at 20% is nice, but the LiFePO4 batteries will get you 3000 at 70% DOD while you'll have 1250 cycles with the Trojan batteries at 70% DOD. LiFePO4 batteries will get you 2000 at 80% DOD while you'll have 1000 cycles with the Trojan batteries at 80% DOD.

The optimal DOD for the Trojan is 50%, giving you ~1600 cycles. If the LiFePO4 batteries give you 3000 cycles at 70%, one might need to replace the Trojan batteries a lot quicker than the LiFePO4 batteries.

I initially had in mind using 16 x 400Ah CALB LiFePO4 batteries (in series) but Sunking and others have convinced me that smaller cells are preferable, with a parallel configuration. So I'll probably go with 32 x 180Ah or even 48 x 180Ah in 16S2P or 16S3P.

I have no doubt that flooded batteries cost less than LiFePO4 ones when we purely look at the Ah. I guess we have to factor other things, like the optimal discharge current, the optimal charging current (which is very important to maximize solar panels power production), the maintenance, ventilation, how much you can abuse the batteries, etc.

Please do NOT think I'm trying to convince anyone LiFePO4 is the way to go. I am still learning and I have *zero* experience right now. That is why I am posting questions in this forum, to get educated and make smart decisions when it comes to my project and so far you guys have all been awesome.

Thanks!

[SunEagle]

Around 900 US$ for the 700Ah battery and 1,300 US$ for the 1,000Ah one.

I expect that does not include the shipping or the BMS.

It would cost me about $2200 plus shipping for a 6 x 2 volt 1000Ah Trojan L16RE batteries rated for 4000 cycles at 20% discharge as opposed to needing at least 4 of those 1000Ah Winston's at $5200 total plus shipping and BMS charging equipment for a system that gets you 5000 cycles at 20% discharge.

Somehow that doesn't add up to me.

[karrak]

Thanks Barba, This is impressive. The one important point is that they cooled the battery to keep its temperature at 25C.

[karrak]

The Y stands for Yttrium. Winston add small amounts to their LFP batteries to supposedly improve the cold weather performance.

If you want to find out who the agents for Winston batteries are in the US and Canada you could try to email the parent company. Their email address is service@winston-battery.com

Simon

[extrafu]

Ok. They do not look cheap. What is a rough cost for their LYP 700Ah or 1000Ah battery?

Around 900 US$ for the 700Ah battery and 1,300 US$ for the 1,000Ah one.

[SunEagle]

Ok. They do not look cheap. What is a rough cost for their LYP 700Ah or 1000Ah battery?

[extrafu]

So where can someone get these LiFeYPO4 batteries?

IIRC, Thundersky/Winston batteries are LiFeYPO4 ones. They are a bit hard to find in the US, impossible in Canada, easy elsewhere.