Concorde LiFePo4 - where are they?

[PNjunction]

So I've been seeing the same old webpage link from Concorde battery about their "about to be released" lifepo4 batteries since 2006. Ok, ONE helicopter.

If anyone wanted to compete with the current crop of large prismatics from the major players like GBS, Winston, or CALB, why isn't Concorde even in the game after all these years?

I would have thought these guys being at the forefront of AGM would be in the forefront of lifepo4 by now and available to the common user in prismatic format. It has been over 9 years in development and not a peep for us. Are they afraid we would not be able to distinguish when an agm is better suited for the application at hand, and how lifepo4 is NOT a universal fit, unless one is on a crusade?

One can wish I guess. Could you imagine the *awesome* documentation that would come from them?

[Sunking]

If I had to guess it is because EaglePicher beat them to the punch and already selling LFP batteries to DOD. They missed the boat, and someone else took their seat.

[PNjunction]

Ah interesting. I read the link material and it was written well for its target audience.

At first I was very concerned with the heavy use of the generic term of lithium-ion, which usually means something OTHER than lifepo4. However, later in the docs they finally did mention that this is the chemical variation of li-ion that they use and a short treatise on why.

I would have NO problem flying on an aircraft with one of these batteries. The general public isn't even aware that many motorcyclists actually sit on top of lifepo4 in the powersports field (Shorai, Antigravity and so forth). Small cylindrical packs built out of other chemistries are just out of the question here, and a reason there are no manufacturers using anything BUT lifepo4 when your butt is only inches away. The exceptions are hobbiests who either know or don't know the risks.

Far different from the other recent dramatic aircraft issues that did not use lifepo4, but I digress and already well (and not so well) covered.

Ok, so that's what happened. Probably won't ever see them available for the common guy, but we have alternatives so I'm good.

[Sunking]

The general public isn't even aware that many motorcyclists actually sit on top of lifepo4 in the powersports field (Shorai, Antigravity and so forth).

Yeah will don't tell Karrak none of the 12 volt LiFePo4 batteries made for cars, boats, RV's planes ext do not use a BMS or Top Balance.

[PNjunction]

Well, actually they do in some cases like EarthX batteries. Prevents the noob from killing cells, but this isn't the powersports thread. And I want to keep it friendly!

[Sunking]

Well, actually they do in some cases like EarthX batteries.

Yep some do have some primitive Bleeder Boards, but outside of that LiFePo4 is a perfect Drop-In Replacement for 12 and 24 volt automotive systems. You never come close to hitting the danger zones. Very little if any external management is necessary.

Back to your OP got a link to Concorde working on LFP?

[PNjunction]

Yep some do have some primitive Bleeder Boards, but outside of that LiFePo4 is a perfect Drop-In Replacement for 12 and 24 volt automotive systems. You never come close to hitting the danger zones. Very little if any external management is necessary.

Gosh, I kinda hoped it wouldn't come to this. You are on the right track, but it is a sweeping generalizaton that leads to trouble when using these cells designed for SLI duties, into cyclic duties such as killing it by running your radio in the garage for an hour without the engine running.

I guess I have to go into it now, but for those not interested in the powersports angle, view this as a demonstration of the need to match your battery to the application .... Here we go...

1) While these babies can start your high-compression engine 20-30 times without breaking a sweat, the REAL ah capacity is on the order of anywhere from 2.5A to 6Ah or more. That is usually far smaller than OEM flooded or agm requirements. BUT, there is a catch!

2) To make the "drop in" easier for the noob, Shorai came up with a non-standard manufacturer rating of "PBeq". (aka lead-acid-equivalent) That is, trying to be sure that the one you choose will merely START your bike well in normal weather compared to the oem lead you are replacing. Not every manufacturer agrees with this made-up rating, but by now are forced to use it for market concerns. Basically, it is not really an "equivalent" when you factor is real-world non-starting concerns!

3) BUT, when you do non-starting duties like running your radio, glove heaters, or other gear without the engine running, you can kill these things in an hour or so if you aren't careful, whereas your oem lead battery would go far longer!

4) So, the general advice is to fit the largest AH capacity that will fit inside your battery tray - ie, go BEYOND the "PBeq" charts if you can!

5) As you've noted, since these are primarily designed for SLI duties, they are all Top balanced, by the manufacturer, but there is still the chance that a noob or cheapskate with an undersized battery will kill his cells. Thus, EarthX provides an internal LVC as well. Chargers like Optimate's lithium series can handle these events.

6) The main point to cell health is that none are using JUNK, (although some brands seem to be better than others - I'll leave that alone here) and strive to match them for both capacity and internal resistance. Since they aren't designed for EV use, but mainly for starting, reaching the very bottom at the same voltage is not part of the plan. The user is advised to to choose a properly sized battery in the first place, and not do foolish things. In the case of EarthX, there is some added protection at both the top and bottom.

7) The "drop in" mentality is avoided like the plague. CY covers this well on his large thread over at ADVrider. For instance, a user who has his regulator set to 14.7 or 14.8v to charge an Odyssey, will do damage to a non-bms lifepo4. On the other hand, if his bmw or other bike charges at only 13.8 - 13.9v for a gel, there may not be enough charge in the lifepo4 drop in for any lengthy starts, especially if the battery was undersized to begin with, has parasitic draws, does only occasional Starbucks runs, or operates in very cold environments. So regulator settings are important to change. Much like changing your regulator to accomodate an Odyssey agm when formerly it was an oem gel. That kind of thing.

8) Depending on the manufacturer, they may or may not provide balancing lead connectors which you and I are familiar with. Under normal circumstances, due to the mainly SLI usage, and the quality factor of not using junk cells, balance is generally maintained, unless you kill them outright with non-starting duties. THEN you should enlist the aid of say Shorai's own balance charger, or in my own case, the Optimate Lithium charger. (these dudes at Optimate know what they are doing actually). Under normal usage with the bikes own simple regulator, everthing is cool for the most part if you don't undersize.

My first venture into lifepo4 was with cells like these. Not so much for starting a bike, but an expensive education when I followed their charge patterns, and also abuse patterns when purposely taking them apart for further diagnosis. This is what lead me to discover that YES, under "sub-C" conditions, quality batteries who are not overcharged and at least balanced once at the top, tend not to go seriously unbalanced. Of course, I avoided the extreme edges of the charge curve, and operated well within the 80% capacity guidelines. Once proven there, I moved on to larger prismatics, and lo and behold - no drama there either with nothing more than an initial sanity-check, and of course lvc and hvc.

It was here that I also discovered the general benefit of pulsed absorb, aka what the Optimate does. My pwm solar charge controllers (be they pwm or mppt also with pwm absorb!) seems to be beneficial for top balancing. Not super exact mind you, but helpful. That is, where a normal CV charge current would be stopped by the first cell fully charged, but now during pulsing in absorb, the low cells tend to come up during the repeating leading edge charge slopes! Instead of balance, "drift together" would be a better term. Optimate also uses this technique on their lead-acid charger series, but of course DO NOT use their lead-acid models on lifepo4!

Of course I come back to my old song and dance - that is, lifepo4 fits many roles, but to take advantage of that, you fit the battery and it's charging paramaters to the task at hand. Some of which are easier than others. Avoid generalizations and stick to quality brands. There is a lot of JUNK out there claiming to be "drop-in". Avoid that mentality here.