LiFePO4 - The future for off-grid battery banks?

[SunEagle]

As dax has said he is not trying to sell anything, he is just trying to counter the BS statement that LFP batteries only last two and a half years. He is trying to backup his argument by saying what experience he and his company have had with LFP batteries. He should be being thanked for sharing his experience rather than have you and others jump down his throat with comments that imply to me that you and and the others think that you know more and have more experience than he and his company. This is the same sort of treatment that was afforded wb9k who is head of the warranty labs at A123.



I can't see any evidence where dax has solicited anything, it was me making a comment about me sending a PM to him.

If everyone had been polite, we might have learned more useful information relevant to the topic of this thread.

Simon

Maybe. I have asked for more info and have not gotten anything I would find useful to be interested in purchasing that product.

If dax had been more forecomming with data instead of just his claims people might beleive his technology works. By providing useful data on a product you do not have to release company secrets. Just provide some actual data on testing or real life experience.

Telling us about how great the product is unfortunately has been done before by others who have not been totally forthcoming with the real facts. So why shouldn't people be cautious.

As of now even Tesla has a product that is "not ready for prime time" (translation; not a viable cost efficient product) but hopefully will have one in the near future.

Small applications of LFP technology, like in stand alone lighting or portable power sources does not guarantee that technology would work in a larger home energy storage system. I have heard and seen too many products that had been advertised as the "better mousetrap" only to be disappointed in their true performance.

[karrak]

Since you are acting as a commercial entity, you should know that the customer wants to KNOW WHAT THEY ARE BUYING.

As dax has said he is not trying to sell anything, he is just trying to counter the BS statement that LFP batteries only last two and a half years. He is trying to backup his argument by saying what experience he and his company have had with LFP batteries. He should be being thanked for sharing his experience rather than have you and others jump down his throat with comments that imply to me that you and and the others think that you know more and have more experience than he and his company. This is the same sort of treatment that was afforded wb9k who is head of the warranty labs at A123.

Last time I checked, this is not a commercial forum, and soliciting PM's is already under fire.

I can't see any evidence where dax has solicited anything, it was me making a comment about me sending a PM to him.

If everyone had been polite, we might have learned more useful information relevant to the topic of this thread.

Simon

[vudu]

Epic thread, laugh out loud

Good to see no one cares about this stuff.

It turns out I have 5+ years experience with LiFePO4 batteries - in solar led lights. I've had many, many solar landscape lights but there has been one stand out and it recently died on me. When I opened it up I was happy to find it was using LiFePO4. The battery was in surprisingly good shape compared to others I've seen of its age but I replaced it - it ran for two nights then died. Turns out one of the components died - not the battery. So I ripped it apart, replaced the solar panel and put it out in the sun. That old battery came up to 3.2V in just a couple hours.

That might not mean much in the context of this thread but it does show that individual cells can be used and abused in a cyclic nature over many years without being destroyed.

For a 'consumer solar battery bank' product to take hold - it has to be stupid proof so people like me can use it. LiFePO4 seems to have some of those qualities.

I hope someone comes along (like you Dax, show us what you got :P), in addition to Tesla, and makes a plug and play consumer version.

If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.

Henry David Thoreau

The big benefit/goal, in my view, is enabling 'the grid' to be more decentralized - not (only) because I am suspicious of 'ma energy' but because it is a better architecture.

See what microsoft has done with batteries to save hundreds of millions in data centers:

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/microsoft-updates-its-open-server-design-with-a-battery-in-every-box/

If you zoom out and take that philosophy to the grid (where the grid here is giant banks of batteries, and the servers are consumers) you could lesson the size of power plants along with a multitude of other benefits.

Energy companies have no incentive to do it - it is up to the consumer to vote with their wallets.

[PNjunction]

May not make 10 posts as it seems those from the USA have only one intent, they are right and their USA products are the only ones that work. So they resort to infantile abuse of any who don't agree with their amateur and very knowledge less approaches to this technology, nor do they have any idea of what the state of the art is in the real world outside the USA. It's clear they have no experience or knowledge of the industry and expect companies to reveal the advantages they have over other installer and manufacturers.

Since you are acting as a commercial entity, you should know that the customer wants to KNOW WHAT THEY ARE BUYING.

Last time I checked, this is not a commercial forum, and soliciting PM's is already under fire.

Accusing us of being nationalist USA types, how about I offer something actual useful to users in Australia - and I'm all the way across the pond!

http://www.ev-power.com.au/-CALB-Lithium-LiFePO4-Cells-.html

and

http://www.evworks.com.au/

and maybe even these guys although I am not familiar with their products. But I offer it to demonstrate I'm not nationalistic.

http://lithbattoz.com.au/?page=about-us

Give me a break.

You gotta' develop a *thicker skin* to hang in this crowd. Good training for when you go into business for real.

[Mike90250]

Alleged dangers of charging LFP below freezing
Have read that LFP will degrade if charged at temperatures below freezing. Is this true only for the high C charging rates of EVs or is it also true for the very low C charging rates of solar in winter time. A vendor of LRP for LFPs said that the particular fabrication of CALB cells greatly mitigates problems at very low temperature charging/

We left our fifth wheel at son's place the last two winters where the temperatures got down to -20° F (-29°C). The parasitic losses were perhaps 400 W per day or about 0.04C per day. We have noted no degradation in capacity. Have planned to put in Halogen lamp (30 W) or a heating pad (30 to 50 W) in the front bay where the batteries are installed in the future. This is quite simple to do since we have 9.6 kW-hr of LFP.

Yes, below frost, only trickle charge. Do not rely on winter solar to be "slow", clear cold bright days bring out the highest performance of solar.
I would use a heating pad with a thermostat and a large heat spreader plate. If the light bulb burns out, you have cold batteries

[reed cundiff]

Alleged dangers of charging LFP below freezing

Have read that LFP will degrade if charged at temperatures below freezing. Is this true only for the high C charging rates of EVs or is it also true for the very low C charging rates of solar in winter time. A vendor of LRP for LFPs said that the particular fabrication of CALB cells greatly mitigates problems at very low temperature charging/

We left our fifth wheel at son's place the last two winters where the temperatures got down to -20° F (-29°C). The parasitic losses were perhaps 400 W per day or about 0.04C per day. We have noted no degradation in capacity. Have planned to put in Halogen lamp (30 W) or a heating pad (30 to 50 W) in the front bay where the batteries are installed in the future. This is quite simple to do since we have 9.6 kW-hr of LFP.
Reed and Elaine

[solar pete]

Wait a minute! You are in Australia! Where is your nationalistic fervor?

hehehe, you just have to tell it like it is brother, cheers

[lkruper]

My thoughts exactly.

Wait a minute! You are in Australia! Where is your nationalistic fervor?

[solar pete]

If there was a company anywhere in the world that was giving a 10 year warranty that guaranteed a cycle a day for a total of 3650, it would be incredible and newsworthy. Your company is delivering this now and has beat Tesla and nobody knows about it?

My thoughts exactly.

[lkruper]

It's no rocket science to realise where the benefits are in spending $20-$30000 on a lifepo4 system which ensures your energy needs for the next 10 years at least and that's the warranty we provide with our installed lifepo4 systems.

If there was a company anywhere in the world that was giving a 10 year warranty that guaranteed a cycle a day for a total of 3650, it would be incredible and newsworthy. Your company is delivering this now and has beat Tesla and nobody knows about it?

[inetdog]

As Ronald Reagan once (or many times?) said: "Trust but verify."

I hope to read glowing reports of your AU installations someday, then maybe we in the US will jump on the bandwagon as it goes by.

[dax]

Hi Dax,

Great to see some more ingenuity and the 'give it a go' attitude from Australia. Your posts are like a breath of fresh air.

If this forum is anything to go by it wouldn't surprise me if there are more off-grid LFP installations in Australia than the whole of the USA.

I am responsible for two installations in Australia, one is my own and the other is for a friend.

I am very interested in what you are doing. I tried to send a PM but not sure if it has got through.

Simon

G'day Simon, have read your PM, but can't reply until after 10 posts and the same goes for others who pm me.

May not make 10 posts as it seems those from the USA have only one intent, they are right and their USA products are the only ones that work. So they resort to infantile abuse of any who don't agree with their amateur and very knowledge less approaches to this technology, nor do they have any idea of what the state of the art is in the real world outside the USA. It's clear they have no experience or knowledge of the industry and expect companies to reveal the advantages they have over other installer and manufacturers.

Not revealing our company, not here to promote it or sell anything, just to put forward what we do and have achieved, so others can see the real situation and not the deluded one put forward by day dreamers. But, once our new distribution site is up an running by the end of this month, happy to reveal it for those in Aus who are interested to learn more.

Their ridiculous claims of there being no dedicated lifepo4 controllers is hilarious, I know of two other major lifepo4 installers in Aus who make their own lifpeo4 control systems like us and use pretty close to the same quality cells we do, all from Asia. Why pay the yanks a fortune for plastic encased cells, completely unsuited for our climate and conditions, our cell configuration and density are constructed for most Aus conditions and are economically and operationally superior to branded plastic. The only problem we've found with our cells is very cold conditions, but that's the same with all lithium chemistries to the best of my knowledge and we figure we will have that solved by the end of this year.

Our aim, is to get as many Aus households and business off grid as possible and using lfepo4, we can only do that with economically priced components and systems. We are builders initially, but realise the rapidly changing situation in the industry. When it costs Aus$40000+ to get your new home connected to the grid and that doesn't include house wiring and much more in rural area's, or you have to run a generator 12- 18 hours of the day, it's a very expensive exercise and then, you have on going and rising costs and grid power failures.

It's no rocket science to realise where the benefits are in spending $20-$30000 on a lifepo4 system which ensures your energy needs for the next 10 years at least and that's the warranty we provide with our installed lifepo4 systems. When we did FLA installs, 3 years warranties for batteries was all manufactures would provide and it then becomes an expensive on going exercise. Even though 2v 500-100amp FLA batteries normally last about 10 years used properly, but you only get one third of the usable capacity out of FLA, compared to 80% from lifepo4. That's why we are seeing such a huge increase in demand and setting up a new website for our company, install in lifepo4 pack and within a months you have 3-4 new inquires to upgrade their systems or a new install. We are now installing for other builders, they built the place as normal and we set it up with a lifepo4 system. Nothing has changed for them, just we connect the energy and not the grid.

Along with the two other builders in Aus who are heading in the same directions us, we estimate between us, by the end of this financial year we will have install close to 10000 lifepo4 off grid cell packs around Aus.

Doesn't matter what is said here, after 5 years, we are still to have no dissatisfied customers and that's the bottom line in the real world.

[PNjunction]

Heh, or yeah the guy under me who thought he was doing the right thing by re-capping our audio boards with "computer grade" capacitors, not knowing that is really a negative selling point.

[lkruper]

Unless disclosed, for all we know these "military" grade batteries are ...

I am not sure that military anything is necessarily an endorsement for any product. Remember the expensive hardware (toilet seats!) the Pentagon bought? -> http://articles.latimes.com/1986-07-...vw-18804_1_nut

[PNjunction]

There is always something good in everything if you look hard enough.

Just noted that CALB has an updated site, and most importantly easy access to the operations manual with full disclosure: See the "additional information" to get to the docs and specs.

http://www.calbusainc.com/

Thing is, I don't use CALB, but a different brand - GBS.

But brand isn't everything as long as it is quality and from a known resource. For our relatively low-current application, one doesn't *need* the higher end models in any particular lineup (unless you specifically know why - and if so you wouldn't be here), so don't be tempted by slick ads. Go by the info and fit the battery to the application. No salesmanship here, just info.