LiFePO4 - The future for off-grid battery banks?

[SunEagle]

Read the entire thread, and not interested in going over it again, have better things to do. A couple here have claimed lifepo4 doesn't last more than about 3 years, they just listen to the desperate FLA spin. Use proper voltage parameters and lifepo4 perform excellently, with no deterioration in capacity or usable energy.

Using small cell sizes compared to large, simply boils down to economics, system safety, energy safety and longevity of the system. If you had any real experience using and working with large systems, you'd understand. I explained it earlier, but it seems some don't have the experience to understand and are more interested in searching for things they can pick on, rather than understanding the content.

From a money grabbing business point of view, large cells systems are money makers, customer are conned by big claims by makers and we could make much more using them, but our prices would go up a lot, especially if we used USA brands. From a personal point of view, couldn't give a stuff what others use, we take care of our customers and are still doing work for some for the last 30 odd years.

The other companies are also builders, to the best of my knowledge, they don't advertise at all like us, they have more that enough work and like all good business, get their customers from recommendations and word of mouth. If you had any knowledge of the building industry, you'd know most don't advertise in any way and from what I know don't want to become a retail outlets. We asked them if they wanted to work with us a year or so ago, as we are all based in different state markets, but they are happy as they are. Until now, like them, we've never had a web site as there's been no need.

In 40 odd years, we've never advertised our business, but as we decided to expand our market because there is no other outlet for dedicated lifepo4 pack controls and we have found a manufacturer, who can produce and deliver to us much cheaper than we can produce the number we want and they are not in China. We have taken this direction and are setting up a dedicated web site to do that. Again it will be word of mouth that we work on and will be happy to let people know when our web site is up and running, until then we will protect our business plan.

No good bragging we can do something, but are years away from being ready, like telsa. They made a big show and can't support their spin and already losing the market. It has made people curious and looking for alternatives to telsa here. So they did us a big favour by revealing to the public how it can be done and we started getting lots of enquirers from those our customers had shown our systems to.

The great USA telsa bragged about what they can't supply, yet small companies like us have been supplying better systems for years. If you look at the rest of the world you will find the same thing happening, many small business already doing what the bragging big boys claim, but can't provide. Consumer mentality always denies the true reality and that's the case here.

I'm only pointing this all out because there are those in Aus who really want to get into this century and become free of the spiraling energy costs. That's it from me, useless trying to inform those whose head is firmly stuck in consumer mentality, with no business or management experience in any way and have no idea of anything, but the need for an argument and to deny any who show they are badly misinformed. You learn nothing with denial, but denial.

Dax

I appreciate you sharing some of your knowledge and data concerning your battery. I am happy your business is taking off and it sounds like the LiFePo4 technology is finally maturing into a worth while energy storage system.

What I do not appreciate is your demeaning manor. Talking down to someone that is trying to understand what you are doing does not help them understand or win you support. What you are doing is the same as those that you are complaining about that have belittled LiFe batteries. Neither form of communication is professional or acceptable.

So I ask that you please continue to access this Forum and provide any help that you can on this technology without revealing any business secrets. Thank you.

[dax]

Read the entire thread, and not interested in going over it again, have better things to do. A couple here have claimed lifepo4 doesn't last more than about 3 years, they just listen to the desperate FLA spin. Use proper voltage parameters and lifepo4 perform excellently, with no deterioration in capacity or usable energy.

Using small cell sizes compared to large, simply boils down to economics, system safety, energy safety and longevity of the system. If you had any real experience using and working with large systems, you'd understand. I explained it earlier, but it seems some don't have the experience to understand and are more interested in searching for things they can pick on, rather than understanding the content.

From a money grabbing business point of view, large cells systems are money makers, customer are conned by big claims by makers and we could make much more using them, but our prices would go up a lot, especially if we used USA brands. From a personal point of view, couldn't give a stuff what others use, we take care of our customers and are still doing work for some for the last 30 odd years.

The other companies are also builders, to the best of my knowledge, they don't advertise at all like us, they have more that enough work and like all good business, get their customers from recommendations and word of mouth. If you had any knowledge of the building industry, you'd know most don't advertise in any way and from what I know don't want to become a retail outlets. We asked them if they wanted to work with us a year or so ago, as we are all based in different state markets, but they are happy as they are. Until now, like them, we've never had a web site as there's been no need.

In 40 odd years, we've never advertised our business, but as we decided to expand our market because there is no other outlet for dedicated lifepo4 pack controls and we have found a manufacturer, who can produce and deliver to us much cheaper than we can produce the number we want and they are not in China. We have taken this direction and are setting up a dedicated web site to do that. Again it will be word of mouth that we work on and will be happy to let people know when our web site is up and running, until then we will protect our business plan.

No good bragging we can do something, but are years away from being ready, like telsa. They made a big show and can't support their spin and already losing the market. It has made people curious and looking for alternatives to telsa here. So they did us a big favour by revealing to the public how it can be done and we started getting lots of enquirers from those our customers had shown our systems to.

The great USA telsa bragged about what they can't supply, yet small companies like us have been supplying better systems for years. If you look at the rest of the world you will find the same thing happening, many small business already doing what the bragging big boys claim, but can't provide. Consumer mentality always denies the true reality and that's the case here.

I'm only pointing this all out because there are those in Aus who really want to get into this century and become free of the spiraling energy costs. That's it from me, useless trying to inform those whose head is firmly stuck in consumer mentality, with no business or management experience in any way and have no idea of anything, but the need for an argument and to deny any who show they are badly misinformed. You learn nothing with denial, but denial.

[Living Large]

Can you please explain the technical reasons why large-format cells prismatic cells in plastic cases (i.e. Winston, CALB etc) should be better that smaller format cells in metal cases?

Simon

My recollection is that dax had advised to avoid large format cells. So the issue is not that using large format is better, but that it was cautioned against.

Advantages and disadvantages, assuming both can reliably perform the task, is a totally different topic. Unless you consider can't reliably perform the task a disadvantage, that is.

[karrak]

Why are large capacity LFP cells better?

I just have an issue with a proposed business venture having conflicting interests - starting with the recommendation not to use large-format cells. That was the red flag.

Can you please explain the technical reasons why large-format cells prismatic cells in plastic cases (i.e. Winston, CALB etc) should be better that smaller format cells in metal cases?

Simon

[PNjunction]

Simon - can you book us all on some sort of LFP based corporate-retreat? You know, where we practice doing trust-falls, yurts, rope walks, that kind of thing?

I'd bet we'd all do fine in the end.

[PNjunction]

Guys - everybody is making *claims* which are unproven so far simply because we don't have the calendrical life to adequately test our cells under real-world conditions to go a decade or more.

So far, there is only ONE place that can come close to doing that without stretching the calendar based upon using lab equipment (which no mortal has except these guys in the educational funding realm) to watch the parasitic reactions and use THAT for making predictions - or we can just wait it out a decade and cross our fingers - despite doing the conservative charge/discharge thing. Jeffrey Dahn at Dalhousie University, where commercial manufacturers send cells for testing that go well beyond just doing repetitive hammer-cycling which is only beating the parasitic clock. One of the guys who built it went on to work for Tesla.

I don't know how much it costs to send cells for testing, or what the acceptance procedure is, but this is worth watching at Dalhousie University. If you look closely, there is a column for LFP, although much of the discussion is about non-lfp cells. Still the basic background info is priceless. Oh yeah, I have Canadian friends too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qi03QawZEk

If an Australian lurker lucky enough to read threads backwards, and wants to avoid all the drama, the lithbattoz guys seem to be a way to go in one place. The simplest of course would be to get a simple 12v 4S (4 cell) battery of the capacity of your choice, a "single-cell" charger, and if you like a pack/bank level charger.

None of this is new if you've been doing LFP since 2008 or so. T1 Terry has. Maine Sail / Compass Marine has. The infamous Jack Rickard (whatever you think of him) has. Of course WB9K, who doesn't hide the fact that he works for A123 has, Doug Ingraham at DIYelectriccar has, and of course input from our other well knowns like SK and a host of others. Many of these early pioneers are in other places enjoying some peace and quiet. We kind of serve a purpose here to keep the LFP drama zoo in one place.

It isn't rocket-science. I think that's what upsets the apple-cart the most and creates the most drama.

In all cases described above, DETAILS are provided.

Dax - read the thread from the beginning. It hurts, I know. You'll find that I agree with you on nearly all of it. I just have an issue with a proposed business venture having conflicting interests - starting with the recommendation not to use large-format cells. That was the red flag.

Can we move beyond the business side of things, and get back to the purely technical without any side-spin?

[Living Large]

Luckily, there is some degree of freedom of speech here, and the lowly infantile people with the massive egos and dumb ideas and no grasp of reality can appear as stupid as they like to you. And there isn't much you can do about it, except comment on it.

[dax]

One thing I've learnt here, there are very few who have any real experience with decent size lifepo4 packs, no business or R&D experience with them and have no understanding how they really work in use. Basically it's mostly pure ignorance and reliance on dumb info relating to the FLA mind set and brain dead ego's.

Lifepo4 don't cycle like FLA, nothing like it. So all the claims of numbers of cycles are the same as claiming a god exists, primitively dumb and blind to reality. Was going to explain it, but after the infantile abuse, there is not a hope in hell of that information being revealed. You can find it for yourselves and not go through the large amounts of money we spent in R&D and 6 years to get to this point.

This is our business, no way are we going to reveal what keeps us at the front of the industry, So funny that someone would run our cells down, then post a link to an Aus company who has just woken up to the quality of the type of metal cased cells and densities we've been using for the last 5 years and they call cam72. If they use 3.65 charge voltage as they claim, they will stuff them within 3 years. These cells hate going over 3.5 volts and there is very little usable energy above 3.5v and below 3v, the majority sits between 3.2 and 3.1v, Which is another form of evidence, you all still use FLA mind sets and not lifepo4.

Successful long term R&D business like ours, do their due diligence with their products and services they are developing, it has taken us 5 years of R&D to get to this point. They have a business and development plan, like our 5 year one and companies that want to be successful undergo this approach to new technologies and business directions. That's why no one has heard of us, but if you have no idea of running successful business, then you would be blind to that reality, or so far up yourself, you'd never be a success in a R&D style business. That's what we've been in the building industry since I started my building business 40 years ago, hence the move to lifepo4 systems.

Drop kick fly by nighters with no knowledge and looking for a quick dollar, jump in using parameters they find on the internet, told to them by some on line jargon speaking dummy, or from supplies who don't have a clue, but love the idea of lots of resales. Then cover it all up by providing a load of useless technical knowledge, the average user has no idea about and doesn't want to know. That's where our market is, not in a bunch whose only claim to knowledge comes from a keyboard search on the net.

Go out and stuff up tens of thousands of dollars worth of cells, controllers, inverters, relays and electrical equipment like we've done over the last 6 years, to get to where we are, then you may have a clue as to how they really work and realise how long they can actually last. Especially when you know those you bought them from, provide a decent warranty, can repair any cells or components that may go wrong and when your cells are beginning to degrade in their capacity and ability to provide decent currents, you can trade in your old cells for new ones, reducing the replacement costs. Thats how a business looking at the long term operates.

If any of you had a business brain, you'd do your sums, economies of scale, due diligence in market placing, competition and back up systems. Develop a business plan, put it in to action and when it is proved, release to the market. After during the first year of mucking round with the cells we developed our 5 year business plan, put into action, proved it with 2000 installs in widely differing situations and environments and now have products which have been proven in action.

As I said earlier for any who want to listen, the charge and discharge parameters I posted earlier, are the ones we've found provide the best outcomes for lifepo4 long life and minimal cycling. If they are stuck to, in our experience, the life time for them is only limited by the environment they operate in. Temperatures from below zero, to 8deg, without proper temp control on cells, they lose the ability to provide large current draws within 2-3 seasons.

They are wonderful for starting engines, but suffer from the huge temp change under the bonnet and if the vehicle is left out in low temps, your lifepo4 won't last very long. Large capacity slow draw systems, don't suffer that problem as much, but if you want your liifeppo4 to serve you for a very long time, keep them at ambient temperatures above 8 and preferably between 15 and 22 deg C and they will be fine. We found 18degC is pretty much a perfect temp for them, not to hot nor to cold. We have moved our starter packs, to inside the vehicles and not under the bonnet and in some machines are heavily insulated to protect them, We've tried heating pads, coils and air warming devises, and are close to coming up with something that doesn't take anything out of the pack when they sit for long periods in low temps or over 25degC, so it is important to isolate your pack if you can. We think we've solved temp problems for big packs and high temps, the technology just have to be proved over the long term before it is incorporated in our systems. Now we are working to implement it in starter systems and should get that done this year.

When dealing with consumers, the technicalities mean nothing, it's the performance, cost and reliability of what they purchase that they seek and that's what we provide. Babble all you like, get some ego trips out of being abusive when faced with facts and realities you don't understand and deny, because it doesn't fit with your programmed mind set. It's your problem not mine and will cost you in the long run and probably already is but you are yet to know it, because you're stuck in la la FLA land with no idea of reality.

[Living Large]

Only the cell mfg can give you that data, for cold temps charging. It's so small, that you are better off running a generator to heat them up above freezing (all the way through the middle) before resuming normal charge. Their internal resistance is so low, there is little self heating in solar applications, that a simple insulated box won't be much help.

This is great factual, practical information. Not the "dumb, infantile abuse" rhetoric I expected to find after reading a newbie's post - someone who apparently can't be troubled with technical details. Thanks!

[Mike90250]

Quote Originally Posted by Mike90250 View Post
Yes, below frost, only trickle charge. Do not rely on winter solar to be "slow", clear cold bright days bring out the highest performance of solar.
I would use a heating pad with a thermostat and a large heat spreader plate. If the light bulb burns out, you have cold batteries

Thanks for reply. My question is how great a C would be safe trickle charge with LFP cells.

Only the cell mfg can give you that data, for cold temps charging. It's so small, that you are better off running a generator to heat them up above freezing (all the way through the middle) before resuming normal charge. Their internal resistance is so low, there is little self heating in solar applications, that a simple insulated box won't be much help.

[lkruper]

Simon

I can see how you could interpret what Sunking said in that fashion with this general statement, even though he did not say 2.5 years. However, if you take all that Sunking said in his posts with more detail addressing the question, it would be wrong to characterize his view as being dogmatic that LIFEPO batteries can only last 2.5 years and continually harp on that one comment.

I would hope that if I were to be quoted by you, that you would consider all that I have written in the same thread together and in context. You would probably want the same treatment, wouldn't you?

[azdave]

Not revealing our company, not here to promote it or sell anything, just to put forward what we do and have achieved, so others can see the real situation and not the deluded one put forward by day dreamers.

...I know of two other major lifepo4 installers in Aus who make their own lifpeo4 control systems like us and use pretty close to the same quality cells we do, all from Asia.

If you don't want to reveal your company yet okay.

Who are the two other companies you mention so we may research their offerings as well?

[karrak]

I don't know what thread you have been reading, but no-one here, as far as I know, believes it has been proven that LFP batteries last only 2.5 years. Would you please show me the post, in context? ...

The ones who are making these claims without proof deserve to be put on the witness stand and cross-examined like the hostile witnesses that they are. They make these claims without proof and anonymously. If you don't believe this, then show me the proof!

You can buy and operate a FLA battery for 5 and a few up to 10 years. There are a couple out there. A really good FLA cost around $200 to $250 per Kwh. If it last say 5 years means just in battery cost alone you paid $1250 / 1825 days = 69-cents per Kwh just for the batteries. You want AGM or LFP? They cost twice as much and last half as long. That means $2500 / 913 days = $2.74 cents per Kwh or 4 times more than FLA.

Simon

[reed cundiff]

Yes, below frost, only trickle charge. Do not rely on winter solar to be "slow", clear cold bright days bring out the highest performance of solar.
I would use a heating pad with a thermostat and a large heat spreader plate. If the light bulb burns out, you have cold batteries

Thanks for reply. My question is how great a C would be safe trickle charge with LFP cells.

[lkruper]

As dax has said he is not trying to sell anything, he is just trying to counter the BS statement that LFP batteries only last two and a half years. He is trying to backup his argument by saying what experience he and his company have had with LFP batteries. He should be being thanked for sharing his experience rather than have you and others jump down his throat with comments that imply to me that you and and the others think that you know more and have more experience than he and his company. This is the same sort of treatment that was afforded wb9k who is head of the warranty labs at A123.



I can't see any evidence where dax has solicited anything, it was me making a comment about me sending a PM to him.

If everyone had been polite, we might have learned more useful information relevant to the topic of this thread.

Simon

I don't know what thread you have been reading, but no-one here, as far as I know, believes it has been proven that LFP batteries last only 2.5 years. Would you please show me the post, in context?


Here is what I read that Sunking said:

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?2214-LiFePO4-The-future-for-off-grid-battery-banks&p=174670&viewfull=1#post174670

''PN therein lies my main issue with LFP. You know the history of Chi-Com Prismatic LFP as well as I do starting with Thundersky just 8 or 9 short years ago. It is not a success story. From the start wildly exaggerated cycle life claims of 1000 to 2000 cycles. Two bankruptcies, and 5 product revisions later today and they still claim 1000 to 2000 cycles to 80% DOD. To this day I know of no documented Lithium any type that has a proven track record of 1000 to 2000 cycles. It is one thing to claim 2000 cycles with no proof or evidence vs say FLA with a 50 year history and proven track record of exceeding 1000 to 2000 cycle. 2000 cycles is about 6 to 8 years.

For EV especially DIY EV there is no other choice using Chi-Com Prismatic. It is the only game in town unless you get a chance at a salvaged EV pack. Otherwise price, availability, and thermal management are just out of reach$ of DIY. Solar you have 2 choices. Either proven Pb that is less expensive and last longer, or a gamble on Chi-Com. As of now we are still 6 to 10 years from knowing if LFP works or not as claimed. ''

Sunking said that we are 6-10 years from knowing if the claims about LFP are valid. In this very thread he encouraged someone who had done the proper research to try LFP if he knew what he was getting into. Why would he do that if he KNEW they would last only 2.5 years?

The ones who are making these claims without proof deserve to be put on the witness stand and cross-examined like the hostile witnesses that they are. They make these claims without proof and anonymously. If you don't believe this, then show me the proof!