lithium maganese cells

[jkirkebo]

So you are saying you got 8 years out of the Rolls huh?

What about replacing those LiFePo4 cells every two or 3 years. You are talking Chi-Com LiFeP04's not A123 Systems or Enerdell LiFePo4. You are talking cheap Chi-Com junk LiFePo4 batteries made by CALB, GBS, Sinopoly and a couple of other companies no one has ever heard of. They all come from one failed battery manufacture called Thundersky. They failed because they went bankrupt from warranty claims. Now the batteries are third generation in just 7 short years. First two generations failed and third is not looking a whole lot better. Time will tell. A complete gamble with companies no one has ever heard of and no track record.

Smart money today is FLA and wait and see where LFP goes. Not ready yet.

No, the Rolls bank has much life still in it, it's going to replace an older FLA bank in my fathers cabin. Our power and energy needs has increased over the years, and the 12V Rolls bank didn't have enough of either (a 2kW load dropped the voltage nearly 10% and we needed to draw 5kW). The Rolls bank weighed nearly a thousand pounds, I was not willing to double it up to two thousand pounds for 24V and twice the energy and power. Not enough space either. My new LiMn bank delivers more energy than a 24V Rolls bank (6x4KS25PS), weighs less than 600 pounds and takes less space than the old single (3x4KS25PS) Rolls bank. It also cost me the same as buying 3 more 4KS25PS.

I expect my Japan-made AESC LiMn cells to last far longer than 2-3 years. Since they are 1-2 years old now and 50% remaining capacity is enough for us I expect at least 10-15 years of service from them. They are installed in a colder climate (will never be hotter than 22 deg. C) and will only do approx. 50-70 shallow cycles per year (typically charged to 80% SOC and discharged down to no less than 50% SOC).

[PNjunction]

Ok, I'm holding BOTH of you to this. We'll see who buys each other a beer and is forced to smash, or at least remove, their crystal balls. Love it.

[Sunking]

Ahh SK take a breath and go and have a good lie down. The forum endorses nothing, I think you will find we have looked at the terms and conditions and if you care to read them I think you will find we say over and over again that the posts are not vetted, so no information given hear should be enacted on in any way without any party seeking at there own expense professional advise.

Have you met Ben Dover from Dewey-Cheatum & Howe yet? They just left Mike's office with a check in hand.

[Sunking]

I bough my first Rolls bank 8 or so years ago. Ifor everyone. And that in my view is a good thing, since I do not have any vested interests in any particular chemistry (well, I do dislike FLA after dealing with it for the last 9 years though).

So you are saying you got 8 years out of the Rolls huh?

What about replacing those LiFePo4 cells every two or 3 years. You are talking Chi-Com LiFeP04's not A123 Systems or Enerdell LiFePo4. You are talking cheap Chi-Com junk LiFePo4 batteries made by CALB, GBS, Sinopoly and a couple of other companies no one has ever heard of. They all come from one failed battery manufacture called Thundersky. They failed because they went bankrupt from warranty claims. Now the batteries are third generation in just 7 short years. First two generations failed and third is not looking a whole lot better. Time will tell. A complete gamble with companies no one has ever heard of and no track record.

Smart money today is FLA and wait and see where LFP goes. Not ready yet.

[jkirkebo]

My marketing manager wants to see you on Monday for a performance review, and it isn't good.

Specifically, you've alienated a huge demographic of lead-acid users from upgrading by denigrating their current choice of chemistry, and have lost the large-prismatic crowd for sure.

I mean - C'mon - this goes waay beyond just being an enthusiastic user with a one-off project to using the free forum as a launching pad for your crusade. Anyone can read through it.

Although I do admire your tenacity - as we know the more we talk about it, the more press it gets - and any press be it good or bad is good for web-search hits. If it is that important to you, why not start your own free blog and take it there?

I don't know why you read so much into this, but please do google me and you'll find I have bo web-site. I have a blog that covers only one thing, our road-trip to the North Cape last summer in a Tesla (5000 miles total).

I bough my first Rolls bank 8 or so years ago. I really wanted lithium but the costs were sky high and availability bad. I kept on checking into it the next years but nothing much happened with LiFePO4. That was a disappointment for me as I really wanted to build a 48V LiFePO4 bank but the costs were way, way too high for me to justify. Then, in the last two years or so, costs for lithum batteries has dropped tremendously, except for LiFePO4. Production volume is soaring and new factories are built many places around the world. Except for LiFePO4, that is.
So it doesn't take an expensive crystal bowl to see where the market is going, both for EV use and for stationary storage, and it's definately not towards LiFePO4. Products like the PowerWall will most probably be launched by a lot more companies, and my guess is that none will utilize LifePO4. Not for technical reasons, but for mass-production reasons, yielding a much lower price because of a much higher volume (sharing chemistry with the EVs and other high volume sectors). You can lament that if you want, but my prediction is that this in the coming years will sharply lower the battery cost for everyone. And that in my view is a good thing, since I do not have any vested interests in any particular chemistry (well, I do dislike FLA after dealing with it for the last 9 years though).

[PNjunction]

I haven't done the numbers but I suspect it is on a kWh basis an order of magnitude more than what all the manufacturers of large prismatic LiFePO4 cells produce in a year.

My marketing manager wants to see you on Monday for a performance review, and it isn't good.

Specifically, you've alienated a huge demographic of lead-acid users from upgrading by denigrating their current choice of chemistry, and have lost the large-prismatic crowd for sure.

I mean - C'mon - this goes waay beyond just being an enthusiastic user with a one-off project to using the free forum as a launching pad for your crusade. Anyone can read through it.

Although I do admire your tenacity - as we know the more we talk about it, the more press it gets - and any press be it good or bad is good for web-search hits. If it is that important to you, why not start your own free blog and take it there?

[solar pete]

How is it off topic? You have another person coming into the forum advocating unsafe practices that can result in property damage, injury and even death. The Forum endorses it by allowing it to run and be seen. The dissention you speak of is not caused from member raising RED FLAGS and WARNINGS of hacks and unsafe practices, it the incompetence and endorsement of the Administration staff allowing such post to even be seen in public. That makes Administration Liable for damages. When someone listens to one of the Slick Willies and implements the suggestion and gets hurt, Administration is liable for all damages. Why? Because you endorsed it and promoted the practice.

Why is that so hard for the Administration staff to understand those simple facts? You do not have to give any notice or reason to censor and ban any member you want out of here. There is no such thing as Free Speech in a private forum.

So now what we have here is the forum endorsing and promoting unsafe practices of taking salvage batteries from wrecked cars and placing them into service in our homes.

You expect that to go unchallenged? Me gotta feeling this Forum is ripe for a huge law suite.

Ahh SK take a breath and go and have a good lie down. The forum endorses nothing, I think you will find we have looked at the terms and conditions and if you care to read them I think you will find we say over and over again that the posts are not vetted, so no information given hear should be enacted on in any way without any party seeking at there own expense professional advise.

Simple fact of a forum such as this NON PROFESSIONAL forum is that you will from time to time get post from people who don't know what they are doing. While we will look to correct such posts its not always possible to be over all posts at all times

[Sunking]

The sales pitch will likely skip that part, and anticipate some follow-on sales after the first 4 hour blackout in a

Pretty common sales tactic. They get to up sell to you later with upgrades. The customer did not ask the right questions the first time. They still do not know what questions to ask.

Just 'cause half the population is used to writing a check to fix the problem, does not preclude us from bring the problem to light and educating the public at large. The "experts" and "hobbyists" do know and understand the shortcomings.

Problem is most do not want to hear facts.

[Mike90250]

powerwall vs neophytes

You purchase the number you need, just like you do with LiFePO4 cells. Up to 9 of them can be connected together, for a total of 90kWh. If you need more, they have the commercial PowerPack product which sells in 100kWh modules and can go up to GWh-capacity levels. Should be enough for everyone

But pity the 4 person & 3 dog household who buys ONE when they really need FIVE, and thinking "ONE would do the job, I mean it came from an electric car factory and everyone knows that ecars need really strong batteries, so one is fine at my house."
These consumers likely don't know what a Kwh on their monthly bill is, and don't have the simple math skills to divide 583Kwh by30 days to get 19Kwh daily consumption. The sales pitch will likely skip that part, and anticipate some follow-on sales after the first 4 hour blackout in a customer zone.
Just 'cause half the population is used to writing a check to fix the problem, does not preclude us from bring the problem to light and educating the public at large. The "experts" and "hobbyists" do know and understand the shortcomings.

[jkirkebo]

polishing a turd, still leaves you with a turd. PowerWalls are vaporware, and sized too small, unless you want to purchase several of them.

You purchase the number you need, just like you do with LiFePO4 cells. Up to 9 of them can be connected together, for a total of 90kWh. If you need more, they have the commercial PowerPack product which sells in 100kWh modules and can go up to GWh-capacity levels. Should be enough for everyone

Vaporware? Well, they do need to get the battery factory online before they can start making them. So no deliveries for nearly a year yet. Probably a lot longer if you order now as demand has been extremely high. By May 12th (latest source I found) they had orders for 38,000 PowerWalls and 2,800 PowerPacks. I haven't done the numbers but I suspect it is on a kWh basis an order of magnitude more than what all the manufacturers of large prismatic LiFePO4 cells produce in a year.

[Mike90250]

.....
I'd maybe make an exception for the PowerWall as it is a finished product and in the same category as an EV, battery wise. But I would certainly make no distinction between for example LiFePO4 and LiMn.

polishing a turd, still leaves you with a turd. PowerWalls are vaporware, and sized too small, unless you want to purchase several of them.

[SunEagle]

How is it off topic? You have another person coming into the forum advocating unsafe practices that can result in property damage, injury and even death. The Forum endorses it by allowing it to run and be seen. The dissention you speak of is not caused from member raising RED FLAGS and WARNINGS of hacks and unsafe practices, it the incompetence and endorsement of the Administration staff allowing such post to even be seen in public. That makes Administration Liable for damages. When someone listens to one of the Slick Willies and implements the suggestion and gets hurt, Administration is liable for all damages. Why? Because you endorsed it and promoted the practice.

Why is that so hard for the Administration staff to understand those simple facts? You do not have to give any notice or reason to censor and ban any member you want out of here. There is no such thing as Free Speech in a private forum.

So now what we have here is the forum endorsing and promoting unsafe practices of taking salvage batteries from wrecked cars and placing them into service in our homes.

You expect that to go unchallenged? Me gotta feeling this Forum is ripe for a huge law suite.

Sunking

Please simmer down. I do not agree with jkirkebo and his plans to use those junk batteries and have provided my postings to say it is not safe and I DO NOT ENDORSE his plans. I have in another thread already informed him I would delete all postings concerning junk EV batteries and will continue to monitor his postings on that thread, on this thread or anywhere else he plans on providing unsafe practices. And if it continues he will be dealt with.

What I meant about being "off topic" was a reference to name calling which IMO is worse to this Forum then some things and in the past has created a lot of anger which I do not want repeated.

I respect your knowledge and experience concerning batteries and solar technology and look forward to reading more and learning from you. I do not want to get into a fight or take this Forum in the wrong direction. So please help me.

[Sunking]

But agree that it and your post is off topic and can cause dissension so please let it go. .

How is it off topic? You have another person coming into the forum advocating unsafe practices that can result in property damage, injury and even death. The Forum endorses it by allowing it to run and be seen. The dissention you speak of is not caused from member raising RED FLAGS and WARNINGS of hacks and unsafe practices, it the incompetence and endorsement of the Administration staff allowing such post to even be seen in public. That makes Administration Liable for damages. When someone listens to one of the Slick Willies and implements the suggestion and gets hurt, Administration is liable for all damages. Why? Because you endorsed it and promoted the practice.

Why is that so hard for the Administration staff to understand those simple facts? You do not have to give any notice or reason to censor and ban any member you want out of here. There is no such thing as Free Speech in a private forum.

So now what we have here is the forum endorsing and promoting unsafe practices of taking salvage batteries from wrecked cars and placing them into service in our homes.

You expect that to go unchallenged? Me gotta feeling this Forum is ripe for a huge law suite.

[SunEagle]

Yet, another post that has no relevance to the thread meant to cause dissension.

You know for some reason I did not equate that post mentioning a "slick Willy" to you.

But agree that it and your post is off topic and can cause dissension so please let it go.

I do not want to see another escalations of name calling posts.

[SunEagle]

I would not put any kind of batteries in large quantities inside my house. Especially not FLA which puts out hydrogen gas. If I were to have batteries at home they would be in a separate building like a concrete shed. If one follows that practice every battery is "safe" in the context of house fires etc.

I'd maybe make an exception for the PowerWall as it is a finished product and in the same category as an EV, battery wise. But I would certainly make no distinction between for example LiFePO4 and LiMn.

A PowerWall product is manufactured under strict safety guidelines and protocols. That is a completely different end result then the one you are talking about using used EV batteries which are unsafe.

Building a battery system out of junked parts and putting them in a concrete shed, barn or bunker is still a path for a potential disaster.