Battery regeneration for R.E.

[max2k]

NEOH: Um, I am not here to debate whether my system works or whether you would use the process or the product. There are always early adopters and late adopters, it is all a matter of establishing the value proposition. I cannot do that here, nor am I trying to. I make statements on what I have developed, you can believe it or not. What matters is whether my clients (like BOSCH) are satisfied.
I already have potential clients who have seen the POC interested in volume deliveries so, your concerns are moot to me, no offense.

I'll point out one thing for you. 50% Ah is not end of life for batteries in the tropics or in the developing world. You live in another world altogether. I know my market and you don't. End of story.

If company like Bosch was interested in your products you'd be busy talking to them and making money. Why so much interest in this niche community that lacks pretty much anything useful to you? I vote to close this thread as it doesn't seem anything useful coming out of it any time soon.

[AncelB]

NEOH: Um, I am not here to debate whether my system works or whether you would use the process or the product. There are always early adopters and late adopters, it is all a matter of establishing the value proposition. I cannot do that here, nor am I trying to. I make statements on what I have developed, you can believe it or not. What matters is whether my clients (like BOSCH) are satisfied.
I already have potential clients who have seen the POC interested in volume deliveries so, your concerns are moot to me, no offense.

I'll point out one thing for you. 50% Ah is not end of life for batteries in the tropics or in the developing world. You live in another world altogether. I know my market and you don't. End of story.

[NEOH]

You stated that your market is "in the tropics" and you have a device that could "rejuvinate / desulfated" SLI batteries.
Hmmm, it sounds like your target market is ... Southern India, Mexico, Africa and Central America.

3) My definition of a fully serviceable is a battery that can attract 1/2 price retail and offer 1/2 the retail warranty.
6) The statistical yield on a hundred random batteries sourced from a recycler is 20 to 30% will be retailable after the process.

Do you honestly think that a 100AH Battery that is worn down to 50AH capacity, is worth 50% of the Original Retail Price?
Your website states that you were able to revive a 100AH Battery, back to 50AH capacity, isn't 50% Capacity called END-OF-LIFE?

7) The batteries are 'tested' by the system, CCA is simple to do (Ohm's law),

I thought the CCA Test was performed when the internal battery temperature is 0F / -18C ?
That is is not "simple to do" at Room Temperature.

It can be used by maritime service, cellular tower service, fleet rental/fleet maintenance or trucking businesses

I would never install a "rejuvinated" junk yard battery into any of the above applications.

Many of us on this website, that use Flooded Lead Acid batteries, will perform an Equalize Charge.
This should keep Lead Sulfate to a minimum.
If we can avoid PSOC then our batteries will fail from some other reason.

It would be interesting to see you could actually rejuvinate a bank of 5 - 7 year old batteries discarded from a PV System.

[Sunking]

I'm just having difficulties to understand how this product can fix old failed SLI with fallen off electrodes because this is how they usually die. .

Should not be difficult at all. Cannot happen, at least not to any usable capacity. I sat on IEEE battery committee for 10 years. We blew every desulfator that has came along out of the water. Anyone claiming a lead calcium battery as deep cycle is full of chit.

Deep cycles will be either Lead Antimony, pure lead, lead selenium, and lead tin. Here is a White Paper published by a friend of mine, Steve Clark at Batcon. It will walk you through the alloys.

[Sunking]

Deep cycle batteries can be used as SLI not the converse. An SLI cannot be categorized as a deep cycle. A trojan T105 deep cycle has an impedance of about 4 milliohms (I measured 8 of them) .Ergo they have a CCA rating of 800 or so. If you need to crank a 12V starter with 2 of them you'd get 400CCA .

The CAT battery is at best a Hybrid. Dead giveaway is it has a CCA Spec. A true Deep Cycle will not publish a CCA, MCA, or CA. The dead giveaway it is a Hybrid is because it specifies CCA, AH, and RC.

SLI have many thinner plates to increase surface area, thus lowering internal resistance so they can produce those high CCA, MCA, and CA currents. They are also made with lead calcium alloy which do not work well with cycling. Both thin plates and lead calcium make for poor choices for cycling applications.

Care to guess what alloy the CAT BATTERY is?

• Grid Type: 0, Calcium Lead Alloy Grid Design

All deep cycle batteries are will have very heavy thick Lead Antimony plates. Case closed. You do not fool me one bit.

[AncelB]

Well if you want to share ideas or discuss prod. dev. or manufacturing I am all for it....but perhaps offlist? My area of experience covers Electronics design, IoT, RF, Renewable energy, plastics fabrication (Thermoforming, laser cutting, injection & blow moulding). I have established an equivalent to a small M.I.T. FABLAB for my prototyping purposes.
protofabtt@gmail.com

[max2k]

Well, allow me to set some fundamentals out. I am not selling or offering anything for sale here. I am a design engineer with M.I.T. credentials and have been the recipient of 10 invention/innovation awards since 2012. Now about the batteries:

1) Electrochemical reactions are accelerated in warmer climates, thus sulphation occurs faster as does positive grid corrosion, so battery care is more important or the battery will suffer premature falure.
2) In order to create POCC (Proof of commercial concept) I have had to process hundreds of batteries, some were deep cycle or dual use, but 90% were SLI: FLA or VRLA.
3)My definition of a fully serviceable is a battery that can attract 1/2 price retail and offer 1/2 the retail warranty. Thus a minimum 1:1 ratio as most of the batteries do better than half the warranty.
4) I have tested this commercially and it flies, in fact the regen. batteries are in demand. Especially in the used car market place.
5) The technology used gets a higher yield on battery recovery when the battery is not prone to bussbar failure or paste/grid failures, thus well built RE types do well.
6) The statistical yield on a hundred random batteries sourced from a recycler is 20 to 30% will be retailable after the process. No chemicals are required.
7) The batteries are 'tested' by the system , CCA is simple to do (Ohm's law), a complex algorithm that took a year of R&D & testing was required for the Ah rating.
8) The Ah rating still takes a couple of automated hours to execute to a 95% confidence.
9) I'd be pleased to share more hard data and testimonials etc. AFTER the product launch, not before. I have investors who are concerned about such.
10) I have only offered the pulse charge engine as open source for experimenters to have a good basis to roll their own solutions with my support.
11) I am not offering a battery regeneration solution in North America or Europe as replacement battery costs don't justfiy the market. The regeneration (4 years R&D) system is not cheap.
12) But a DIY solution can find traction in those territories thus my offer of a viable pulse engine for DIY.

you are funny and i see where you're coming from I have few inventions on my own, they're in pre- prod stage atm and I have bunch of investors lined up. As a courtesy I can send you drawings for one very efficient and useful device needed for practically every household. Let me know if there's interest to expand exposure of my product to tropical climates.

[AncelB]

Well, allow me to set some fundamentals out. I am not selling or offering anything for sale here. I am a design engineer with M.I.T. credentials and have been the recipient of 10 invention/innovation awards since 2012. Now about the batteries:

1) Electrochemical reactions are accelerated in warmer climates, thus sulphation occurs faster as does positive grid corrosion, so battery care is more important or the battery will suffer premature falure.
2) In order to create POCC (Proof of commercial concept) I have had to process hundreds of batteries, some were deep cycle or dual use, but 90% were SLI: FLA or VRLA.
3)My definition of a fully serviceable is a battery that can attract 1/2 price retail and offer 1/2 the retail warranty. Thus a minimum 1:1 ratio as most of the batteries do better than half the warranty.
4) I have tested this commercially and it flies, in fact the regen. batteries are in demand. Especially in the used car market place.
5) The technology used gets a higher yield on battery recovery when the battery is not prone to bussbar failure or paste/grid failures, thus well built RE types do well.
6) The statistical yield on a hundred random batteries sourced from a recycler is 20 to 30% will be retailable after the process. No chemicals are required.
7) The batteries are 'tested' by the system , CCA is simple to do (Ohm's law), a complex algorithm that took a year of R&D & testing was required for the Ah rating.
8) The Ah rating still takes a couple of automated hours to execute to a 95% confidence.
9) I'd be pleased to share more hard data and testimonials etc. AFTER the product launch, not before. I have investors who are concerned about such.
10) I have only offered the pulse charge engine as open source for experimenters to have a good basis to roll their own solutions with my support.
11) I am not offering a battery regeneration solution in North America or Europe as replacement battery costs don't justfiy the market. The regeneration (4 years R&D) system is not cheap.
12) But a DIY solution can find traction in those territories thus my offer of a viable pulse engine for DIY.


Edit: Note that the system described is not targeted at the individual with a couple batteries to recover. it is purpose built to run 24/7 and is only commercially viable if there is steady feedstock for it. The system is NOT EVER to be sold as a one off. It is a leased item with a 300% ROI for the lessee in a month. Thus it is probably overkill for the average forum member. It can be used by maritime service, cellular tower service, fleet rental/fleet maintenance or trucking businesses, battery recyclers etc. This must be so since the science data every deployed unit produces is fed back to an ever growing database of battery failures & regenerations. Ultimately to create the world's first searchable database on battery performance or failure modes on a tropical global basis.

My offer to the moderator was for a demo unit which I can deploy 'unlocked' so there are no 'fees' attached.

For those who doubt, it has been in service at a BOSCH franchise producing 'service' batteries for about a year now. A service battery is one that is given to a customer who has a battery warranty claim. The warranty claim batteries or staledated exstock batteries are processed into service batteries.

[SunEagle]

My problem with OP solution is he presented it working on SLI batteries coming off cars and just trying to expand it to RE Deep Cycle batteries. I disassembled those SLI batteries and I saw those fallen off electrodes time after time so I'm not buying his original solution even for free . Casually extending it to Deep Cycle recovery is even more questionable and I'd need much more convincing than just marketing push. Where are the pics of batteries before and after, stats, any data to back this up? His site has 2 pics of battery cells made through maintenance holes but it is much more interesting to see the actual plates .

I understand your skepticism and concern. More info would be desirable before I totally believe in this new revival procedure.

[max2k]

I agree that if the failure is due to electrode disconnection then the battery is just a paper weight. The same is true if the plates have been eroded too thin by the acid. Not something that can be revived.

If the problem is sulfation on the plates and someone has found a way to remove that scaling it might provide some useful amount of charge capacity back into the battery. Up until now all forms of chemical or electrical processing advertised to revive the battery do not work or are nothing more than snake oil being sold by a carpet bagger.

The OP's solution may be possible and commercially viable. I don't know but time will tell.

My problem with OP solution is he presented it working on SLI batteries coming off cars and just trying to expand it to RE Deep Cycle batteries. I disassembled those SLI batteries and I saw those fallen off electrodes time after time so I'm not buying his original solution even for free . Casually extending it to Deep Cycle recovery is even more questionable and I'd need much more convincing than just marketing push. Where are the pics of batteries before and after, stats, any data to back this up? His site has 2 pics of battery cells made through maintenance holes but it is much more interesting to see the actual plates .

[SunEagle]

I'm just having difficulties to understand how this product can fix old failed SLI with fallen off electrodes because this is how they usually die. Whatever 'invention' still needs to pass some basic sanity check threshold and so far i don't see that here. If those failed SLI from the tropics failed after 1 year then yes, something might be recoverable but members here maintain their banks much better and 1 year failure would reasonably make them look for problems with their systems, not a remedy.

I agree that if the failure is due to electrode disconnection then the battery is just a paper weight. The same is true if the plates have been eroded too thin by the acid. Not something that can be revived.

If the problem is sulfation on the plates and someone has found a way to remove that scaling it might provide some useful amount of charge capacity back into the battery. Up until now all forms of chemical or electrical processing advertised to revive the battery do not work or are nothing more than snake oil being sold by a carpet bagger.

The OP's solution may be possible and commercially viable. I don't know but time will tell.

[NEOH]

In the website article it states,
"...
In fact, the oldest battery I regenerated was a sealed Caterpillar 100AH Photovoltaic 12V unit that sat in a tropical warehouse for 10 Years which I got at under 3V at rest.
The outcome was a 50Ah fully serviceable battery within a day or two.
..."

What do you mean by "fully serviceable"?
Because that battery certainly was not fully restored back to 100AH, right?

So, what is your definition of END-OF-LIFE for a 100AH Lead Acid Battery?

[NEOH]

Perhaps when the 100% automated commercial units are available I could send you one to evaluate if you're in the tropical zone. The website is being built and I do have EXCEL log sheets (tracking voltages, currents, times, Spec gravity, Ah ratings, CCA improvements) of (mainly automotive) battery recoveries over the last few years when I was developing the protocols to optimize regeneration. The value of the system is apparent in the tropics where sulphation happens quickly. Temperate zones are not sulphation prone.

The complete units do 4 things:
1) Regenerate & re rate (Ah,CCA), for failed batteries, providing early rejection and identification of critical failures.
2) Exercise & re rate (Ah,CCA), useful for storage batteries and marine applications.
3) Charge & rerate (CCA), if you just need a pulse charged battery that desulfates on the go.
4) Float/maintenance charge up to 2 12V batteries which are also used as battery backup if mains go down.

Q1) Exactly what is your testing procedure to "re-rate" CCA - Cold Cranking Amps?
Q2) Exactly what is your testing procedure to "re-rate" AH's ?

Battery Temperature = ?
Starting Voltage = ?
Load Amp = ?
Ending Voltage = ?
Run Time in HH:MM = ?


You wrote,
"... Temperate zones are not sulphation prone. ..."

Lead Acid Batteries that are in the Temperate Zones and in a Partial State of Charge, are also prone to sulfation.

[max2k]

But there is always the first time someone comes up with a usable product. So some type of battery rejuvenation device could be useful as long as it isn't expensive to purchase.

While I do not live in a tropical zone (although some people think Florida is) I appreciate the offer to test a model but will decline.

Just please don't offer that product with any strings attached like a one time shipping and handling charge. That is a sure sign of someone trying to get money for nothing.

I'm just having difficulties to understand how this product can fix old failed SLI with fallen off electrodes because this is how they usually die. Whatever 'invention' still needs to pass some basic sanity check threshold and so far i don't see that here. If those failed SLI from the tropics failed after 1 year then yes, something might be recoverable but members here maintain their banks much better and 1 year failure would reasonably make them look for problems with their systems, not a remedy.

[SunEagle]

But there is always the first time someone comes up with a usable product. So some type of battery rejuvenation device could be useful as long as it isn't expensive to purchase.

While I do not live in a tropical zone (although some people think Florida is) I appreciate the offer to test a model but will decline.

Just please don't offer that product with any strings attached like a one time shipping and handling charge. That is a sure sign of someone trying to get money for nothing.