Tesla Powerwall 2

[Charlie W]

In the U.S., the ITC applies to the powerwall when calculating cost per watt. You also need to account for the solar inverter that is included.

I don't speak Acronym, so you will need to define your terms. As for the inverter, well, I didn't include sales tax, which is 7% where we're heading. In any case, even 11 cents/kWh for storage would be out of the question for generator replacement.

[bberry]

I don't speak Acronym, so you will need to define your terms. As for the inverter, well, I didn't include sales tax, which is 7% where we're heading. In any case, even 11 cents/kWh for storage would be out of the question for generator replacement.

http://www.seia.org/research-resources/solar-investment-tax-credit-itc-101

[J.P.M.]

I don't speak Acronym, so you will need to define your terms. As for the inverter, well, I didn't include sales tax, which is 7% where we're heading. In any case, even 11 cents/kWh for storage would be out of the question for generator replacement.

Hey Charlie: I'm not nuts about acronyms either, but: 1.) Someone was providing information for free. 2.) They are not your servant. 3 .) You have a brain. Use it. A quick Google check would have quickly zeroed in on the meaning as bberry demonstrated. Some things you will need to do for yourself.

[cebury]

Hey Charlie: I'm not nuts about acronyms either, but: 1.) Someone was providing information for free. 2.) They are not your servant. 3 .) You have a brain. Use it. A quick Google check would have quickly zeroed in on the meaning as bberry demonstrated. Some things you will need to do for yourself.

Off topic, but last comment remind me of something, though the commit is not the same.
I grew up in a small town in central CA that was 85% Hispanic. During high school, I worked retail at the local pharmacy and pizza place, and customers would get very pissed if someone didn't speak Spanish. One time a person yelled, in Spanish, "why are you speaking English, everyone here should speak Spanish". Goes along with the "I don't speak xxx, you must speak what I speak."

[Mike90250]

Hey Charlie: I'm not nuts about acronyms either, but: 1.) Someone was providing information for free. 2.) They are not your servant. 3 .) You have a brain. Use it. A quick Google check would have quickly zeroed in on the meaning as bberry demonstrated. Some things you will need to do for yourself.

Reminds me of the book "Everybody gets a Trophy"

[Charlie W]

I thought "International Trade Commission," but that made no sense.

[DanKegel]

OK Dan, if you think the LCOE is $0.11/kW, that's also below your POCO cost, so I expect you'll be among the first to do public service and put your money where your mouth is when/if this product becomes available ?

That's a pretty confrontational way to debate the technical/economic merits of a particular battery. Seems like you're calling me a hypocrite, offhand. But maybe I'm misreading, and you're actually being friendly in an abusive sort of way, who knows.

Like anyone else, I'd figure out the payback time. If it was 6 years or less, I'd be tempted. Payback's likely to be a lot shorter in Maui, though.

[J.P.M.]

That's a pretty confrontational way to debate the technical/economic merits of a particular battery. Seems like you're calling me a hypocrite, offhand. But maybe I'm misreading, and you're actually being friendly in an abusive sort of way, who knows.

Like anyone else, I'd figure out the payback time. If it was 6 years or less, I'd be tempted. Payback's likely to be a lot shorter in Maui, though.

Who Knows ?? Certainly not you. Since IMO, you have little to no knowledge about most of what's posted around here, I thought you might make a good unbiased test bed for Musk's latest vaporware promise.

Because I don't know you, I don't know if you're a hypocrite or not. I also don't know if your behavior is hypocritical or not, nor do I care. I care about information content. I do think a lot of content in your posts is self serving based on an ego, is mostly off the mark, and is usually devoid of meaningful or helpful content, or composed of attachments to what seem to me to be mostly useless tree hugger crap that you ignorantly latch on to because it fits your ignorant view of the R.E. side of the world.

I consider such behavior inconsiderate, selfish, rude and perhaps dangerous, especially for readers who are as ignorant about solar and renewable energy as you are, but who come here looking for what they hope is helpful and technically correct information. Then they read the usual tripe such as you usually produce and may well think it's all a cake walk. IMO, and whether you know it or not, your postings are often a shill for the con men. Your actions here are not, IMO only, helping. Attitudes such as yours do little more than give the solar naysayers ammunition.

[Charlie W]

Like anyone else, I'd figure out the payback time. If it was 6 years or less, I'd be tempted. Payback's likely to be a lot shorter in Maui, though.

Not so sure about that. But if it were true, I'm not sure that citing the highest electricity costs in the country, in a thinly populated state, really helps your case.

[DanKegel]

Not so sure about that. But if it were true, I'm not sure that citing the highest electricity costs in the country, in a thinly populated state, really helps your case.

? I pointed to Maui as one of the few places it might make economic sense. I agree with J.P.M. and others that even 11 cents / kWh for storage is not economical in most areas. I guess given the tensions here I should have made that explicit.

Do you agree that, if the Powerwall could make sense anywhere, it'd make sense first in areas where power's really expensive, and there's no net metering? If so, we're on the same page.

[DanKegel]

I do think a lot of content in your posts is self serving based on an ego, is mostly off the mark, and is usually devoid of meaningful or helpful content, or composed of attachments to what seem to me to be mostly useless tree hugger crap that you ignorantly latch on to because it fits your ignorant view of the R.E. side of the world.

Did I say anything inaccurate in *this thread*? I correctly pointed out that power's very expensive in Maui, that net metering is closed to new applicants there, and that if one takes Tesla's warranty on its word, the cost per stored kWh for the battery is about 11 cents/kWh.
Which of those, if any, do you think is inaccurate?

[Charlie W]

? I pointed to Maui as one of the few places it might make economic sense. I agree with J.P.M. and others that even 11 cents / kWh for storage is not economical in most areas. I guess given the tensions here I should have made that explicit.

Do you agree that, if the Powerwall could make sense anywhere, it'd make sense first in areas where power's really expensive, and there's no net metering? If so, we're on the same page.

I admit to having a heightened sense of skepticism about Tesla's products. Still, I can see why rich people would want the cars. Stick a big-azz battery in a car, and a stout electric motor, and you have a cool toy if you have money to burn. But the Powerwall? I honestly do not see ANY worthwhile use for it, even on Maui.

[DanKegel]

I admit to having a heightened sense of skepticism about Tesla's products. Still, I can see why rich people would want the cars. Stick a big-azz battery in a car, and a stout electric motor, and you have a cool toy if you have money to burn. But the Powerwall? I honestly do not see ANY worthwhile use for it, even on Maui.

Let's see if it pencils out.

https://www.hawaiianelectric.com/my-account/rates-and-regulations/average-price-of-electricity

gives the average residential cost of power in Maui as 35 cents/kWh.
https://www.hawaiianelectric.com/cle...upply-programs says
self-supply is the only solar plan available now; it has a minimum monthly charge of $25, so you'd want to size the array a little smaller to avoid that (per the usual good advice on this board).
If the battery costs $5500 plus $220 sales tax and $1000 installation, and qualifies for the 30% ITC, its full cost is something like $5000.
http://www.mauisolar.com/pricing.html says an 11 kWh/day system costs $3550 after hefty rebates; if it lasts 20 years, that's something like 4 cents / kWh (assuming inflation is zero, hah).
So... cost of nighttime solar power provided by the powerwall would be something like 11 + 4 = 15 cents / kWh, which is well under the 35 cents / kWh charged in Maui.

So, unlike on the mainland, it really does seem like the new powerwall pencils out ok on Maui. That suggests they'll sell a lot of systems there.
If they can't, that's powerful evidence that batteries aren't ready for prime time.

I'm sure there are mistakes in my back-of-the-envelope calculations (like, inflation won't be zero). If you find something that changes the conclusion that the powerwall pencils out ok on Maui, I'd like to hear it.

Does that help explain why the powerwall might actually be useful on Maui?

[jflorey2]

Hmmmm... what is the latest version of the Samsung Galaxy - you know... the one that you can't fly with on airlines because it blows up, catches fire, etc?

Well, you can't fly with FLA batteries either, and they can be nasty if you don't know what you are doing with them. Still, a lot of us use them.

I'm hoping that Tesla works the kinks out and ends up with a reasonable lead acid alternative.

[gmanInPA]

My point was simply that a product that has had numerous iterations was far from problem-free, so just because Powerwall is on v2 doesn't somehow mean they've worked out all the kinks - that is just dumb logic and hasn't been true for Samsung, who has been around far longer than Tesla but is recalling a couple problematic products that have seen more than two generations.

I'm a fan of FLA (which I have and use) and would love to see a working Powerwall that met my needs and the right price. But I'm not gonna confidently assert it will somehow be market-changing simply because of a dog and pony show or because it bears the "Tesla" name on it

[DanKegel]

Yeah. It's not going to change the world. The question is, will it start selling like hotcakes in at least one favorable market (like Maui). If and when it does, then it's more than just a dog and pony show.

[SunEagle]

IMO home energy storage will take off in Germany and Australia before it hits main land US. It might make some head way in the state of HI but the price still needs to come down for most people and I am guessing the product sold will be someone in competition with Tesla.