Tesla Powerwall, The Specs, Numbers, and Implementation Absolutely Brilliant

[SunEagle]

If Musk can deliver on the Gigafactory vision of <$200 per kWh lithium batteries then I would say, as a first approximation, nowhere.

Even if a Li-XX battery at < $200/kWh can be developed and commercialized, there will be thousands of places around the world still using LA batteries.

Especially all them preppers that have raised those "free" batteries from the dead.

[tehan]

Where will lead acid batteries be used in ten years?

If Musk can deliver on the Gigafactory vision of <$200 per kWh lithium batteries then I would say, as a first approximation, nowhere.

[donald]

I don't believe in argument by authority on the internet. But since you ask, I worked for the largest non-automotive purchaser of lead-acid batteries in the world. Satisfied?

Where will lead acid batteries be used in ten years?

[tehan]

Yes. The Tesla for one does not require any routine battery maintenance and the battery pack is sealed.
Most off-grid battery systems use 48V maximum because of the reduced complexity of other wiring rules, but it is possible to comply with the conditions of the exception just by putting appropriate caps over the terminal connections or using AGM batteries, which also have no routine maintenance.

Interesting. I spoke again to my contact and he said a few clarifying things: (1) 690.71B is well known to solar manufacturers and they basically all conform to it, (2) it only applies to solar storage and not to UPS and there was a lot of argument about that, (3) it doesn't apply to lithium because no maintenance is required (same thing you said).

What are the wiring rules you are referring to?

[Mike90250]

Who said anything about a large base of off-grid? I said the number of off-grid systems was small. That was a mistake: I should have said it's tiny.

My background is in the cable TV and cell phone industries. Both of these serve over 100m US households. According to SEIA, the total number of US residential solar installations is under 650k, or less than 0.5% of US homes. And off-grid is a just a fraction of that. I realize that may look like a large industry from where you sit, sort of like the Matterhorn at Disneyland looks big to a six-year-old. But where I come from, it's small.

I don't believe in argument by authority on the internet. But since you ask, I worked for the largest non-automotive purchaser of lead-acid batteries in the world. Satisfied?

yes.

[inetdog]

690.71B. There are exceptions listed there too which I guess Tesla (and your UPS) may fall under.

Yes. The Tesla for one does not require any routine battery maintenance and the battery pack is sealed.
Most off-grid battery systems use 48V maximum because of the reduced complexity of other wiring rules, but it is possible to comply with the conditions of the exception just by putting appropriate caps over the terminal connections or using AGM batteries, which also have no routine maintenance.

[tehan]

OK, you explain yourself, in plain english. what is your large base of off grid that is excited about a 300v battery ?

And now, what is your hands-on experience with solar and batteries.

Who said anything about a large base of off-grid? I said the number of off-grid systems was small. That was a mistake: I should have said it's tiny.

My background is in the cable TV and cell phone industries. Both of these serve over 100m US households. According to SEIA, the total number of US residential solar installations is under 650k, or less than 0.5% of US homes. And off-grid is a just a fraction of that. I realize that may look like a large industry from where you sit, sort of like the Matterhorn at Disneyland looks big to a six-year-old. But where I come from, it's small.

I don't believe in argument by authority on the internet. But since you ask, I worked for the largest non-automotive purchaser of lead-acid batteries in the world. Satisfied?

[SunEagle]

OK, you explain yourself, in plain english. what is your large base of off grid that is excited about a 300v battery ?

And now, what is your hands-on experience with solar and batteries.

He might be legally bound not to disclose any data on what SolarEdge is planning so he could associated with that company and therefore passionate about the home battery system.

[Mike90250]

I guess when you have no more points to make then you resort to the ad hominem attacks. Sad.

Originally Posted by tehan
I understand there is a very small base of off-grid users who are upset that Powerwall does nothing for them. .....

OK, you explain yourself, in plain english. what is your large base of off grid that is excited about a 300v battery ?

And now, what is your hands-on experience with solar and batteries.

[Willy T]

Willy is that you?

Officer, did you get the IP number of that truck?

Blake is that you ? There you go again, you only make yourself look silly and diminish that 35 year old Resume with the dust flying off of it.

NewIPnow.com , 500 IP addresses for $5.00 a month.

Warning I sat on the NEC code panels for 2 cycles, and a moderator on MH NEC code forum. Even taught a few classes for MH.

This was good for a laugh. I hope you didn't get bleacher buns from sitting so long. Weren't you " Dereckbc " then ?

[tehan]

Ditto been doing this professionally for 35 years. Have installed hundreds of systems with 200 plus battery volts on UPS systems with FLA open cells. Passed every inspection even in NEW YORK CITY AND CHICAGO.

So please enlighten us on your expertise. Warning I sat on the NEC code panels for 2 cycles, and a moderator on MH NEC code forum. Even taught a few classes for MH.

To be clear, I haven't and don't claim subject matter expertise on NEC code. I was simply passing along information I had received from a reliable source. When asked, I researched and provided above the relevant reference. In part, this says:

"Storage batteries for dwellings shall have the cells connected so as to operate at less than 50 volts nominal. Lead-acid storage batteries for dwellings shall have no more than twenty-four 2-volt cells connected in series (48-volts nominal)."

I am not arguing that is the whole story. There are exceptions included in the above section, and I'm sure you need to read this section in conjunction with a million other sections/rules/policies whatever. But I didn't just make it up!

[Sunking]

I guess when you have no more points to make then you resort to the ad hominem attacks. Sad.

Willy is that you?

Officer, did you get the IP number of that truck?

[Sunking]

So wrong. sigh....

I do not know what your background in solar is, but it's apparent, that you have none.

Can it be Willy Mike? You need to apologize to him , you might of hurt his feelings and have to tell on yourself.

[Sunking]

Can you quote a Code section supporting this?

Ditto been doing this professionally for 35 years. Have installed hundreds of systems with 200 plus battery volts on UPS systems with FLA open cells. Passed every inspection even in NEW YORK CITY AND CHICAGO.

So please enlighten us on your expertise. Warning I sat on the NEC code panels for 2 cycles, and a moderator on MH NEC code forum. Even taught a few classes for MH.

[tehan]

So wrong. sigh....

I do not know what your background in solar is, but it's apparent, that you have none.
There is a large base of educated users whom are upset that the powerwall is a poor product with a lot of hype behind it.

Some Grid Tie systems use high voltage DC but the powerwall does not have an integral charger, so that would have to be purchased separately. It may pass NEC by the fact it's a sealed "box" with no accessible parts.

I guess when you have no more points to make then you resort to the ad hominem attacks. Sad.

No need to purchase a separate charger: all you need is a SolarEdge inverter and the Powerwall battery. Watch for the SolarEdge demonstration and press release next week. Wish I could tell you more but I don't want to spoil the surprise!