Tesla Powerwall, The Specs, Numbers, and Implementation Absolutely Brilliant

[tehan]

Some truth to that. Actually it is somewhat easier to charge Lithium, especially LFP. It only requires a CV/CC mode or 1 Stage aks Float. LA can be done Float charged and is exactly what Industrial and Commercial applications do.

The difference is all the dang monitoring and control required for Bottom/Mid/Top Balancing, LVD, HVSD, thermal management and liquid cooling. For experienced users just Bottom Balance and use a LVD and be done with it. Rest of the folks needs expensive complicated controls and monitoring.

But isn't that just how tech happens? Take car engines. Thirty years ago you could work on your own engine, change the spark plugs, replace a belt, maybe adjust the timing a bit if you were ambitious. Nowadays with electronic ignition and engine management systems you don't want to touch the thing without a masters degree and $20k diagnostic tool. But that's what they needed to do to push out the price/performance curve. And while the NRE on these things is huge, it's just insignificant in the context of global scale manufacturing.

[Willy T]

Only thing that makes it possible for a USA lithium battery factory is NTSA Policy banning all air shipments of Lithium batteries. A few planes have burned up, smoke in cabins, and a couple have crashed while shipping. Really poor policy because it is one kind of lithium battery that does that; Cobalt.

It's still not a ban and applies to a specific type of battery on Passenger Planes.

Lithium metal batteries transportation update

Lithium metal batteries transported as cargo are restricted to Cargo Aircraft Only since 1 January 2015. The prohibition on the carriage on passenger aircraft only applies to lithium metal batteries when shipped by themselves, and does not apply to batteries packed with equipment or contained in equipment. Check the Lithium battery update for 2015 (pdf)

[Sunking]

Understanding LA charging systems is easy compared to Li charging. Of course that might grow a whole new area of expertise.

Some truth to that. Actually it is somewhat easier to charge Lithium, especially LFP. It only requires a CV/CC mode or 1 Stage aks Float. LA can be done Float charged and is exactly what Industrial and Commercial applications do.

The difference is all the dang monitoring and control required for Bottom/Mid/Top Balancing, LVD, HVSD, thermal management and liquid cooling. For experienced users just Bottom Balance and use a LVD and be done with it. Rest of the folks needs expensive complicated controls and monitoring.

[Sunking]

You had to do it didn't you? I call you infallible and then your very next post is so full of erroneous garbage it's hard to know where to begin.

1. This is no NTSA policy banning air shipment of lithium batteries.

My bad it is IATA and PHMSA

[donald]

Understanding LA charging systems is easy compared to Li charging. Of course that might grow a whole new area of expertise.

But it's also a change from LA batteries to Li-on battery sub-systems. I doubt there will ever be "just batteries" sold for solar after FLA

Look at LiFoPO. I think that technology shows that civilians aren't up to the task of managing the technology. I doubt individuals need the expertise, just put the cells into a battery subsystem.

[tehan]

Very possible our paths have crossed. MCI Worldcom use to be the largest single buyer of all Telecom equipment especially batteries and battery plants. I use to be the director of Facilities engineering until the party was over in 2003. From there started my own company doing the same work for all Telecoms and Cellular. The two biggest buyers today are the former MCIWorldcom known today as Verizon, and the other is ATT.

Bernie Ebbers tried to hire me once. Even took me out to lunch. Probably the most charming and utterly convincing man I have ever met. I very near said yes. I think he was arrested about three months later.

[tehan]

No real game changer, just the way the economics and poor government transportation policy works. Only thing that makes it possible for a USA lithium battery factory is NTSA Policy banning all air shipments of Lithium batteries. A few planes have burned up, smoke in cabins, and a couple have crashed while shipping. Really poor policy because it is one kind of lithium battery that does that; Cobalt.

Lithium Cobalt are the batteries used in Tesla Roadsters, Laptops, and Cell Phones. That is why the Roadster and to some extent the S Car and Powerwall car needs liquid cooling and thermal management.

You had to do it didn't you? I call you infallible and then your very next post is so full of erroneous garbage it's hard to know where to begin.

1. This is no NTSA policy banning air shipment of lithium batteries. In fact, vast quantities of lithium batteries are air shipped every day from China to USA. There are strict rules regarding the packaging of lithium batteries during air shipment, as there are for many other types of cargo.
2. The Gigafactory location selection had nothing to do with government policy, other than perhaps the usual local incentives. It was driven by the need for proximity to Tesla's manufacturing in California because shipping costs for big heavy things are not immaterial.
3. Tesla uses thermal management in its battery packs to extend cycle life. It has nothing to do with fire hazard, which is handled by unrelated design elements.

[Sunking]

True, but I'm sure I would have enjoyed it if I had. Infallibility is just such an awesome personality trait.

Very possible our paths have crossed. MCI Worldcom use to be the largest single buyer of all Telecom equipment especially batteries and battery plants. I use to be the director of Facilities engineering until the party was over in 2003. From there started my own company doing the same work for all Telecoms and Cellular. The two biggest buyers today are the former MCIWorldcom known today as Verizon, and the other is ATT.

[Sunking]

Bingo. This is a game-changer, and not just for the lithium battery industry, but its competitors as well. It's "adapt or die" time for them.

No real game changer, just the way the economics and poor government transportation policy works. Only thing that makes it possible for a USA lithium battery factory is NTSA Policy banning all air shipments of Lithium batteries. A few planes have burned up, smoke in cabins, and a couple have crashed while shipping. Really poor policy because it is one kind of lithium battery that does that; Cobalt.

Lithium Cobalt are the batteries used in Tesla Roadsters, Laptops, and Cell Phones. That is why the Roadster and to some extent the S Car and Powerwall car needs liquid cooling and thermal management.

[tehan]

You have never worked for me or with me.

True, but I'm sure I would have enjoyed it if I had. Infallibility is just such an awesome personality trait.

[SunEagle]

You have never worked for me or with me.

The telephone industry is pretty big. Chances are you two would never meet even if you both worked for the same company.

[Sunking]

I don't believe in argument by authority on the internet. But since you ask, I worked for the largest non-automotive purchaser of lead-acid batteries in the world. Satisfied?

You have never worked for me or with me.

[SunEagle]

I agree, which is sort of why I said "as a first approximation". Obviously lead-acid has been around forever and there's a lot of it out there. The automotive sector is the one to watch because their purchase volumes dwarf everyone else combined. If they start switching, which would not be hard for them, things could get very interesting very fast.

I agree. Using an Li battery as a starting or drive power source for automotive will grow over the next 10 years. How much and fast is a crap shoot.

I am not sure how quickly lift truck batteries will switch over since the batteries weight is part of the equipment balancing act. And there are other areas that LA has intrenched itself.

The driving force to use LA or Li will come down to the initial cost, lifetime and maintenance.

Understanding LA charging systems is easy compared to Li charging. Of course that might grow a whole new area of expertise.

[rclark]

If Musk can deliver on the Gigafactory vision of <$200 per kWh lithium batteries then I would say, as a first approximation, nowhere.

Bingo. This is a game-changer, and not just for the lithium battery industry, but its competitors as well. It's "adapt or die" time for them.

[tehan]

Even if a Li-XX battery at < $200/kWh can be developed and commercialized, there will be thousands of places around the world still using LA batteries.

Especially all them preppers that have raised those "free" batteries from the dead.

I agree, which is sort of why I said "as a first approximation". Obviously lead-acid has been around forever and there's a lot of it out there. The automotive sector is the one to watch because their purchase volumes dwarf everyone else combined. If they start switching, which would not be hard for them, things could get very interesting very fast.