LiFePO4 vs Lead Acid a cost analysis for energy storage.

[russ]

When Turkey starts to block Solar Panel Talk, we will know that it is because they have Russ under electronic surveillance.

The Twitter and Youtube blocks worked real well - maybe a few people didn't come with a work around but very few. Even the president and assistant PM posted on Twitter.

[inetdog]

I am not interested in politics either but if you say anything about the prime monster (minister) here you can be charged with a crime. Better to be where they have trouble learning who you are.

When Turkey starts to block Solar Panel Talk, we will know that it is because they have Russ under electronic surveillance.

[russ]

I'm really in Canada and not interested in politics no reasons to hide.

I am not interested in politics either but if you say anything about the prime monster (minister) here you can be charged with a crime. Better to be where they have trouble learning who you are.

[electrodacus]

IT IS NOT A LINEAR GRAPH, and no application would discharge to 100% DOD, not even lithium. You have to compare apples to apples and use real batteries. Not fairy tales with imaginary batteries. There is no such thing as a A123 battery period. If the cycle life were linear or a straight line there would be some validity to what he is saying. But Cycle life is not linear in a FLA battery. Why is that so hard for you and him to understand?

Simple economics should tell you he is full of it. If lithium was cheaper and better, you would see lithium batteries and charge controllers sold for RE applications. Guess what, they do not exist except on very small scale mostly for the Remote Control model markets. Why RC? Because Specific Energy Density justifies the cost .

Don't even cross the line of implementation of using 3.2 volt 20 AH prismatic cells into a usable voltage and capacity required for RE. Just how much money and engineering do you think it will take to assemble enough of the cells (28 of them) into a useful product? Say something on the lines of of a Trojan LR16RE-A. Add another $500 of material labor and engineering cost on top of the $1000 of cells. Do that and now you are comparing a $1500 battery to a $300 battery and the $300 battery will last as long or longer than the $1500 battery. Does that compute to you there Sherlock Ian. Or are you a Sucker too??

I know you do not read what I write so I think a photo may be a better solution for you.


This photo should answerer some of your questions like. Dose the A123 Systems exists? Is LiFePO4 a good solution for stationary energy storage? Can they build a large battery out of 20Ah cells?

[Sunking]

When you provide a link to a graph that confirms the guy's claims, it doesn't do a whole heck of a lot for your argument. LOL!

IT IS NOT A LINEAR GRAPH, and no application would discharge to 100% DOD, not even lithium. You have to compare apples to apples and use real batteries. Not fairy tales with imaginary batteries. There is no such thing as a A123 battery period. If the cycle life were linear or a straight line there would be some validity to what he is saying. But Cycle life is not linear in a FLA battery. Why is that so hard for you and him to understand?

Simple economics should tell you he is full of it. If lithium was cheaper and better, you would see lithium batteries and charge controllers sold for RE applications. Guess what, they do not exist except on very small scale mostly for the Remote Control model markets. Why RC? Because Specific Energy Density justifies the cost .

Don't even cross the line of implementation of using 3.2 volt 20 AH prismatic cells into a usable voltage and capacity required for RE. Just how much money and engineering do you think it will take to assemble enough of the cells (28 of them) into a useful product? Say something on the lines of of a Trojan LR16RE-A. Add another $500 of material labor and engineering cost on top of the $1000 of cells. Do that and now you are comparing a $1500 battery to a $300 battery and the $300 battery will last as long or longer than the $1500 battery. Does that compute to you there Sherlock Ian. Or are you a Sucker too??

[electrodacus]

No it is just you. I blew all your calculations out of the water with very valid arguments. You made up a story, I countered with facts.

I am all for Lithium Battery Technology, even on some stock in a company who is developing lithium. Lithium is a great option for electric vehicles where the extraordinary expense is justified for the Specific Energy Density they offer. But for Renewable energy is decades away from being competitive.

You used models with fake batteries that do not exist, Falsified Trojan battery data, and compared apples to oranges. You got caught and called out on it. Now you whine like a baby because you got busted.

How did you blow the calculation out of the water ?

By saying A123 System is a non existing company ?
Maybe you even have some A123 System batteries in your house if you happen to have some cordless Dewalt power tools.
Also what then was purchased by NEC for 100mil dollars less than a month ago?
They got just the energy storage part of the A123 so they can build grid-scale energy storage solutions.
This should answer both of your concerns first that the A123 System is an existing company with real products and second that LiFePO4 is excellent choice for energy storage.

But there are plenty of other LiFePO4 manufacturers out there are they also non existent. Yes most other manufacturers are form China since the work force is cheap and qualified and they have great Lithium reserves.

How was the Trojan data falsified ?

[Ian S]

You are one of the Suckers he is looking for.

When you provide a link to a graph that confirms the guy's claims, it doesn't do a whole heck of a lot for your argument. LOL!

[Sunking]

I do not really get why there is so much hostility against LiFePO4 on this forum.
People do not even check the calculations or come with a valid argument but dismiss the LiFePO4 without even looking.

No it is just you. I blew all your calculations out of the water with very valid arguments. You made up a story, I countered with facts.

I am all for Lithium Battery Technology, even on some stock in a company who is developing lithium. Lithium is a great option for electric vehicles where the extraordinary expense is justified for the Specific Energy Density they offer. But for Renewable energy is decades away from being competitive.

You used models with fake batteries that do not exist, Falsified Trojan battery data, and compared apples to oranges. You got caught and called out on it. Now you whine like a baby because you got busted.

[electrodacus]

I do not really get why there is so much hostility against LiFePO4 on this forum.
People do not even check the calculations or come with a valid argument but dismiss the LiFePO4 without even looking.

Dose this forum have any direct affiliation with a renewable energy store? Like the Arizona Solar and Wind?

I think when most people hear about Lihtium batteries they have in mind the LiCoO2 that is present in basically all phones, laptop, tablets ... and those are optimized for energy density and usually have a 300 to 800 cycles 100% DOD more than enough for a product life of 3 years.
The energy density is way more important there so they are charged at 4.2V. If you where to charge the same battery at 3.9V it will only have 60% of the capacity at 4.2V but will last 8x longer (8x more cycles) a 2x increase for each 100mV drop.
That 3.9V is what is used in military application for long life.

LiFePO4 is quite a different battery there is no free lithium so it will not burn if mistreated and they have a much lower energy density than LiCoO2 in exchange for much longer life usually 2000 to 4000 cycles 100% DOD before it gets to 80% of the original capacity.
They also have a higher power density (they can be discharged at high rate when compared to LiCoO2)
The lower energy density comes for the lower charge voltage that is 3.2V nominal and 3.6V max charge. They are 95 to 98% SOC when they get to 3.4V so there is not much capacity above that.
So charging of this battery is extremely simple when compare to LiCoO2 and Lead Acid all you need is a single stage CC (constant current charging) and stop the charging at 3.4 or 3.45V nothing else.
When used in series for higher voltage a small balance circuit is needed in order to keep the cell balanced.

There are many LiFePO4 manufacturers today more then they where 2 years ago when I got my batteries. The price is now at around 1$/Ah that is around 0.3$/Wh some may be more expensive up to no more than 0.5$/Wh but this is not a way to compare batteries not even if they are the same chemistry so you should also read the spec and see what sort of life cycle they have.
This LiFePO4 cells can be had in large capacities hundreds of Ah so it will be easy to build a battery without the need to use parallel cells and thus make for a simple installation.

[Sunking]

Good grief get a grip! Your linked graph shows exactly what the guy is claiming: 4000 cycles at 20% DOD, 1600 cycles at 50% DOD and 800+ cycles at 100% DOD for the premium line of batteries.

You owe the guy an apology IMHO; he doesn't deserve your insults.

He is a Fraud using the forum to peddle his wares. You are one of the Suckers he is looking for.

[Mike90250]

BS the graph is not a straight line or linear. Nuke this Snake Oil Salesman. He asked a month ago to TERMINATE his Account. WTF R U Waiting 4?

He is a Clever Chi-Com SPAMNMER, NUKE HIM

Hey ! I don't get cable here, so this is the best game in town this week.

[Ian S]

I already posted a Link. It is you who cannot read a graph. IT IS NOT LINEAR or a STRAIGHT LINE.

You will not get the last word before the thread is closed and you are exposed as a FRAUD. Leave now while you can.

Good grief get a grip! Your linked graph shows exactly what the guy is claiming: 4000 cycles at 20% DOD, 1600 cycles at 50% DOD and 800+ cycles at 100% DOD for the premium line of batteries.

You owe the guy an apology IMHO; he doesn't deserve your insults.

[electrodacus]

I already posted a Link. It is you who cannot read a graph. IT IS NOT LINEAR or a STRAIGHT LINE.

You will not get the last word before the thread is closed and you are exposed as a FRAUD. Leave now while you can.

I seen your link. take a look again more closely and read 4000 cycles at 20% DOD; 1600 cycles at 50% DOD and 800 cycles at 100% DOD.
That may not be real in a solar application but may be real for a electric vehicle application where immediately after discharge you make a full and complete charge not possible in solar applications.

It dose not look like a straight line because of the way the data is presented.
What will I have to gain? why will I be a fraud?
This is a forum where ideas are discussed.

Not sure that I mentioned before but the fact that LiFePO4 is a better choice for energy storage is not my idea. I just rediscovered that when I was searching for a good battery to use on my offgrid house.
It was not hard for me to make a good an informed decision as an electrical engineer but not all have the same level of understanding.

[Sunking]

Try and read data from that graph.

Say if for Trojan premium line of battery you do not see 4000 cycles at 20% DOD 1600 cycles at 50% DOD and 800 cycles at 100% DOD.
What numbers do you see? If you see something else post a link to that graph.

I already posted a Link. It is you who cannot read a graph. IT IS NOT LINEAR or a STRAIGHT LINE.

You will not get the last word before the thread is closed and you are exposed as a FRAUD. Leave now while you can.

[electrodacus]

BS the graph is not a straight line or linear. Nuke this Snake Oil Salesman. He asked a month ago to TERMINATE his Account. WTF R U Waiting 4?

He is a Clever Chi-Com SPAMNMER, NUKE HIM

Try and read data from that graph.

Say if for Trojan premium line of battery you do not see 4000 cycles at 20% DOD 1600 cycles at 50% DOD and 800 cycles at 100% DOD.
What numbers do you see? If you see something else post a link to that graph.