PURE GEL vs AGM vs GEL batteries

[deb griffiths]

We have a 3kw wind turbine
A 3 kw solar panel array
Inverters etc
We need to order the batteries to complete the set up
I am so confused about the best btteries to use
We think we nee 12v x 200 AMP hr x 20 batteries
We run 240 volts in the house
PLEASE what are the best batteries for us to purchase
Price is not the issue
The best cycles, best long term life the best

thanks

[Sunking]

None of the above. Gel is out of the question for RE applications. AGM is OK but too expensive and does no tlast near as long as Flooded Lead Acid.

Next is a huge mistake of using 12-12 volt batteries. I do not know what battery voltage you intend on running but 12 volts is plain crazy talk. So I assume you are looking at 48 volt battery. The capacity you talking about if configured for 48 volts is 600 Amp Hour. That being the case you would not use 12 volt 200 AH batteries as that would require 3 parallel strings. Regardless of what voltage you run you only want 1 single battery string. With 48 volt @ 600 AH you would use either 8-6 volt 600 AH batteries, or 12-4 volt 600 AH batteries. Forget 12 volt anything.

[Mike90250]

None of the above. Gel is out of the question for RE applications. AGM is OK but too expensive and does no tlast near as long as Flooded Lead Acid.

Next is a huge mistake of using 12-12 volt batteries. I do not know what battery voltage you intend on running but 12 volts is plain crazy talk. So I assume you are looking at 48 volt battery. The capacity you talking about if configured for 48 volts is 600 Amp Hour. That being the case you would not use 12 volt 200 AH batteries as that would require 3 parallel strings. Regardless of what voltage you run you only want 1 single battery string. With 48 volt @ 600 AH you would use either 8-6 volt 600 AH batteries, or 12-4 volt 600 AH batteries. Forget 12 volt anything.

What he said.
48V
Flooded batteries

[phild]

try looking at Lead Crystal Batteries. These are not flooded cells so they are safer, have high cyclic life, don't gas like traditional batteries (all of these types of battery gas but the levels are negliable),
look at harlandsimonups.com to find out more.


Sales leads & free site Ads, not allowed. Moderator

[PNjunction]

deb - without knowing your power needs first, it sounds like you've just been sold a bill of good to toss into a $hopping cart. Find this out first before buying ANY battery, or being tempted by commercial vendors to throw more items into it.

Until you find this out, stay on the grid. Currently the project is a waste of money and time. The lead crystal ball won't save it.

[Mike90250]

phild
As far as I am concerned, "lead crystal" batteries are simply AGM batteries with a label. Add enough amps to them and the vents will pop. Leave them discharged for a couple days and they sulfate.
And the site you gave, uses intrusive java script, but it looked like from the front page, they deal with UPS systems, which demand reliability, and after several events, the batteries are changed out. Totally different from off-grid deep cycle requirements.

[Kweight]

24 pcs 2V batteries in series to get 48 Volt battery bank

We have a 3kw wind turbine
A 3 kw solar panel array
Inverters etc
We need to order the batteries to complete the set up
I am so confused about the best btteries to use
We think we nee 12v x 200 AMP hr x 20 batteries
We run 240 volts in the house
PLEASE what are the best batteries for us to purchase
Price is not the issue
The best cycles, best long term life the best

thanks

For 48V battery bank, 24 pcs * 2V batteries in series is one of good choice; Flooded Lead-acid battery(OPzS battery) is your best choice, long life, but need to be maintained sometimes. Or you can choose pure Gel battery(OPzV battery), and AGM 2V battery is good as well, both of them are maintenance free.

[Sunking]

try looking at Lead Crystal Batteries.

You have got to be joking or a fool. Which one? Lead Crystal is just a buzz Marketing word for AGM battery with a higher price tag.

[phild]

Hi Sunking,
Lead Crystal batteries have come and gone as a brand name previously, what I am referring to are not AGM batteries at all. They don't have the normal electrolyte make-up inside as do AGM batteries (loose electrolyte), but they make use of a way of crystalising a gel electrolyte following 3 cycles. These particular batteries have only been released for sale in the UK and Europe for 18 months, please don't confuse old brand names with new technologies. The whole purpose of this type of battery is its capability for long discharges not short duration UPS applications. Solar and wind energy are perfect applications.
As for being a fool, 23 years of working with energy storage on a worldwide basis suggests otherwise, faceless criticism is something that happens on forums I know but you need to know what people have done before starting a bun fight. I would also point out that should you happen to be American, you will never have seen these batteries before, so please bear that in mind.

[Sunking]

Hi Sunking,
Lead Crystal batteries have come and gone as a brand name previously, what I am referring to are not AGM batteries at all. They don't have the normal electrolyte make-up inside as do AGM batteries (loose electrolyte), but they make use of a way of crystalising a gel electrolyte following 3 cycles. These particular batteries have only been released for sale in the UK and Europe for 18 months, please don't confuse old brand names with new technologies. The whole purpose of this type of battery is its capability for long discharges not short duration UPS applications. Solar and wind energy are perfect applications.
As for being a fool, 23 years of working with energy storage on a worldwide basis suggests otherwise, faceless criticism is something that happens on forums I know but you need to know what people have done before starting a bun fight. I would also point out that should you happen to be American, you will never have seen these batteries before, so please bear that in mind.

There are many companies that have released Lead Crystal batteries. Axiom being one of them, and the technology is virtually the same from on manufacture to the next. I have been watching them for the last 5 years. The claims sound great, but 3rd party testing and price point as of now do not give them any advantage.

For example 3000 cycles is great. But you can buy a premium FLA that has up to 4000 cycles at about half the price with a better warranty of 10 years vs 3 years of Lead Crystal. I am all for new battery tech and watch it closely. Right now all th eR&D money is going into Lithium which is the smart money as Lithium has roughly 500% more Specific Energy density than Lead Crystal. Energy density is not all that important for RE applications, but battery tech is going after Electric Vehicles and not RE. RE applications is just a secondary perk.

[PNjunction]

Ok, I'm confused - Axcom, makers of lead-crystal batteries in their technical application user's manual specifically state (page 5 of the pdf) that they are AGM, but using the magic crystallizing function of their electrolyte to do the job as compared to a standard agm.

[inetdog]

Ok, I'm confused - Axcom, makers of lead-crystal batteries in their technical application user's manual specifically state (page 5 of the pdf) that they are AGM, but using the magic crystallizing function of their electrolyte to do the job as compared to a standard agm.

Sometimes it is hard to fit a particular supposedly new technology into old descriptive buckets.

At the moment all Lead Acid batteries rely on liquid sulfuric acid as the electrolyte, potentially with various additives for better resistance to sulfation. In the same way, the plates all currently involve some chemical and physical form of lead for both electrodes, with possible addition of other metals for special properties.

Even GEL and AGM batteries use essentially liquid sulfuric acid, physically combined with a gelling agent or an absorbtion/adsorbtion medium to keep the acid from moving around within the battery as it is tipped. They are also what is known as electrolyte-starved systems, without a reservoir of additional H_2SO4 in free flowing form.

The touted difference between a standard AGM Lead Acid battery and a Lead Crystal battery is in the physical and chemical composition of the electrode(s), not the composition of the electrolyte.

[Mike90250]

...
The touted difference between a standard AGM Lead Acid battery and a Lead Crystal battery is in the physical and chemical composition of the electrode(s), not the composition of the electrolyte.

And an extra high price tag to pay for the marketing hype.

[Sunking]

And an extra high price tag to pay for the marketing hype.

My sentiments exactly. I can get better and longer cycle life for less bucks. AGM and it derivatives have their niche place, but you pay a premium for it. It is all about bang for the buck. Right now that title belongs to FLA. I think someday Lithium might take over, but right now a long way from it. At least it has improved somewhat. 10 years ago lithium was 1000% higher. Today 400 to 500%.

[Kweight]

Hi Sunking,
Lead Crystal batteries have come and gone as a brand name previously, what I am referring to are not AGM batteries at all. They don't have the normal electrolyte make-up inside as do AGM batteries (loose electrolyte), but they make use of a way of crystalising a gel electrolyte following 3 cycles. These particular batteries have only been released for sale in the UK and Europe for 18 months, please don't confuse old brand names with new technologies. The whole purpose of this type of battery is its capability for long discharges not short duration UPS applications. Solar and wind energy are perfect applications.
As for being a fool, 23 years of working with energy storage on a worldwide basis suggests otherwise, faceless criticism is something that happens on forums I know but you need to know what people have done before starting a bun fight. I would also point out that should you happen to be American, you will never have seen these batteries before, so please bear that in mind.

Honestly, in my opinion, Lead Crystal battery is just one of Gel battery or AGM battery combined with Gel electrolyte. Some Chinese battery companies use Lead Crystal battery as buzz Marketing word to promote and sell it.