Aquion Energy up and coming battery....opinions please

[Mike90250]

Comparisons have been left, but LFP centric topics moved to a new thread

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?19238-LFP-battery-chatter

Mod

Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||

|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||

|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

[SunEagle]

Here is the costing comparing battery types and factoring in cycle life:

Trojan L16 is $809/4000 cycles = $0.202 per kwh @ 20% DOD

Balqon 5.2 kwh module is $1417/7000 cycles = $0.202 per kwh @ 35% DOD

Aquion S20 stack is $962.5/6000 cycles = $0.160 per kwh @ 50% DOD

Rolls 5000 series is $1314.5/5000 cycles =$0.263 per kwh @ 20% DOD

There is not much variation in estimated cost between all of these battery types.

Those $/kWh are closer to what I would calculate based on their lifespan. But to be fair when comparing costs of battery types I would try to size the systems with the same voltage and similar Ah rating. To me that would be a better comparison of $/kWh.

[northerner]

Here is the costing comparing battery types and factoring in cycle life:

Trojan L16 is $809/4000 cycles = $0.202 per kwh @ 20% DOD

Balqon 5.2 kwh module is $1417/7000 cycles = $0.202 per kwh @ 35% DOD

Aquion S20 stack is $962.5/6000 cycles = $0.160 per kwh @ 50% DOD

Rolls 5000 series is $1314.5/5000 cycles =$0.263 per kwh @ 20% DOD

There is not much variation in estimated cost between all of these battery types.

[northerner]

Now go try a deep cycle battery, not a traction battery like a Trojan L16RE and factor in cycle life. Big difference. Or try the king of cycle life using any Rolls 5000 Series.

You cannot compare at initial upfront cost. Determine the $/Kwh of the entire life of a battery. When you go that route you get something between 30 to 70 cents per Kwh for FLA. LFP and Sodium will be higher. That is when you realize the mean ole greedy POCO is the best deal in town at 6 to 15 cents per Kwh for all you want round the clock.

I think you are also overlooking the charging sequence with solar. With solar you do not have the option of PSOC, and is opportunity charging of every day when there is sun. Only time you will ever get to 50% DOD is when you have 3 cloudy days. At that point you need a generator or 3 days full sun to recover while you sit in the dark. That gig is best served by FLA. Having said that Trojan RE line-up is capable of PSOC with its Carbon/Lead technology just like Aquion without the headaches at a fraction of the cost.

I was comparing costs and then factoring in the cycle life to come up with the final comparison.

As far as the charging sequence goes, you still only have about 20 or 30% useable with FLA and it's a constant battle getting the batteries mostly or fully charged every single day. I would be happier getting a decent sized battery, where I didn't have to worry about leaving it at a PSOC, and could just run the generator enough to make it through to the next day, if need be. Also, no wasted energy with absorptions and EQ's.

Also, I just checked the Rolls 5000 series and they post their cycle life at 5000 at 20%DOD, which is only 1000 cycles more than the Trojan's I just posted. The Trojans are actually more cost effective, as they are only about 60% of the cost.

[Sunking]

For the FLA I referenced a Trojan L16

Now go try a deep cycle battery, not a traction battery like a Trojan L16RE and factor in cycle life. Big difference. Or try the king of cycle life using any Rolls 5000 Series.

You cannot compare at initial upfront cost. Determine the $/Kwh of the entire life of a battery. When you go that route you get something between 30 to 70 cents per Kwh for FLA. LFP and Sodium will be higher. That is when you realize the mean ole greedy POCO is the best deal in town at 6 to 15 cents per Kwh for all you want round the clock.

I think you are also overlooking the charging sequence with solar. With solar you do not have the option of PSOC, it is opportunity charging of every day when there is sun, not when hit a Predetermined State of Charge like 20, or 50% SOC. Only time you will ever get to 50% DOD with FLA is when you have 3 cloudy days. At that point you need a generator or 3 days full sun to recover while you sit in the dark. That gig is best served by FLA. Having said that Trojan RE line-up is capable of PSOC with its Carbon/Lead technology just like Aquion without the headaches at a fraction of the cost.

[northerner]

How are you calculating the $ / Kwh in bold type above? You may be correct but to me it looks like you are off by a few decimals.

For the FLA I referenced a Trojan L16 rated at 370 ah @6v = 2.22 kwh total capacity x 20% useable = 0.444 kwh useable and is $359. Thus the price comparison for FLA is $359/0.444kwh = $809/ Kwh of useable storage.

For the LFP I referenced a Balqon 5.2kwh Battery Storage Pack and if comparing with an optimum of 35% useable is 5.2 kwh total capacity x 35% useable = 1.82 kwh useable and is $2580. Thus the price comparison for LFP is $2580/1.82 kwh = $1417/ Kwh of useable storage.

For the Sodium Ion I referenced an Aquion S20 which is 2.4 kwh and if comparing with an optimum of 50% useable is 2.4 kwh total capacity x 50 % useable = 1.2 kwh useable and is $1155. Thus the price comparison for Sodium Ion is $1155/1.2 kwh = $962.5/ Kwh of useable storage.

Hopefully no confusion using useable battery storage, but should give a better approximation of actual cost. Of course there will be many other factors which could affect overall cost!

[SunEagle]

I was only using 50% DOD for the purpose of comparing the battery types, and did not imply they are to be used to that extent every day.

I did another cost comparison between the same batteries (ie FLA, LFP and Sodium Ion).

L16 FLA came up with a cost of $809 per Kwh (for the 20% useable you suggested) and is rated at a cycle life of 4000 (at 20% DOD)

LFP came up with a cost of $1417 per Kwh (for the 35% useable you suggested) and is rated at a cycle life of close to 7000 (at 35% DOD)

Sodium Ion came up with a cost of $962 per Kwh (for the 50% useable) and is rated for a cycle life of 6000 (at 50% DOD)

So if you factor in the cycle life for each, the overall cost, as I had mentioned previously, is still very close for all 3 battery technologies. I agree that the Aquion sodium ion batteries have issues with paying Mr. Peukert, and thus will not be suitable for many applications.

How are you calculating the $ / Kwh in bold type above? You may be correct but to me it looks like you are off by a few decimals.

[Living Large]

I was only using 50% DOD for the purpose of comparing the battery types, and did not imply they are to be used to that extent every day.

I did another cost comparison between the same batteries (ie FLA, LFP and Sodium Ion).

L16 FLA came up with a cost of $809 per Kwh (for the 20% useable you suggested) and is rated at a cycle life of 4000 (at 20% DOD)

LFP came up with a cost of $1417 per Kwh (for the 35% useable you suggested) and is rated at a cycle life of close to 7000 (at 35% DOD)

Sodium Ion came up with a cost of $962 per Kwh (for the 50% useable) and is rated for a cycle life of 6000 (at 50% DOD)

So if you factor in the cycle life for each, the overall cost, as I had mentioned previously, is still very close for all 3 battery technologies. I agree that the Aquion sodium ion batteries have issues with paying Mr. Peukert, and thus will not be suitable for many applications.

I am following your conversation with great interest, having just looked first at AHI, then AGM, and finally FLA as a newbie. I did not spend time on LFP, because an article I read made the case that LFP are not well suited for off-grid applications without an integrated battery monitoring system at the individual battery level - since if one battery in a series string goes to too high a voltage, it can be destroyed. Something like that.

One thing that caught my eye - I couldn't go to 50% DOD on AHI daily, because I couldn't recharge them daily with only 2 hours of insolation a day in the winter. The only option was to increase the capacity (and cost) by a factor of two or more. Way too much gen run time. In more sunny environments, this may not be an issue.

I don't want to divert the discussion. I had noticed that Sunking assumed a *daily* discharge to 50%, which I didn't think you were assuming. In any event, I am looking forward to more discussion of the comparative costs.

[northerner]

That was your mistake. You would never design a FLA or LFD for 50% DOD daily discharge. For FLA only 20% daily, LFP 35 % daily.. Nor would you ever design any battery type to 50% daily.

LFP is the only type you can fully discharge and get 2000 to 3000 cycles, but you would never design a off grid system to take them that far down. Another point you have not considered is Peukert Effect is significant with Aquion batteries coupled with very high internal resistance robbin gyou of more than 50% of the capacity unless you discharge them very SLOWLY C/20 or less.

I don't like it any more than you do. I waited two years to get data on them. Now that the data and price are out and known, there are not many applications for them. At first they were billed to be used in EV's which quickly turned out to be a pile of poop because of the very poor density and high resistance. Density is not much of an issue with storage if space is not an issue. But resistance and Peukert is a huge issue couple with $/wh makes them useless for most applications. They will be a niche product for markets like emergency lightning in the mining industry, signal lights for rail road, telemetry and other low energy density applications where cost is not a factor.

If you want to spend that kind of money use LFP for 1/3 the cost and no headaches. It is not rocket science.

I was only using 50% DOD for the purpose of comparing the battery types, and did not imply they are to be used to that extent every day.

I did another cost comparison between the same batteries (ie FLA, LFP and Sodium Ion).

L16 FLA came up with a cost of $809 per Kwh (for the 20% useable you suggested) and is rated at a cycle life of 4000 (at 20% DOD)

LFP came up with a cost of $1417 per Kwh (for the 35% useable you suggested) and is rated at a cycle life of close to 7000 (at 35% DOD)

Sodium Ion came up with a cost of $962 per Kwh (for the 50% useable) and is rated for a cycle life of 6000 (at 50% DOD)

So if you factor in the cycle life for each, the overall cost, as I had mentioned previously, is still very close for all 3 battery technologies. I agree that the Aquion sodium ion batteries have issues with paying Mr. Peukert, and thus will not be suitable for many applications.

[Sunking]

How do you figure that cycle life is equal in all 3 batteries? I compared all 3 types of batteries at an average DOD of 50%.

That was your mistake. You would never design a FLA or LFD for 50% DOD daily discharge. For FLA only 20% daily, LFP 35 % daily.. Nor would you ever design any battery type to 50% daily.

LFP is the only type you can fully discharge and get 2000 to 3000 cycles, but you would never design a off grid system to take them that far down. Another point you have not considered is Peukert Effect is significant with Aquion batteries coupled with very high internal resistance robbin gyou of more than 50% of the capacity unless you discharge them very SLOWLY C/20 or less.

I don't like it any more than you do. I waited two years to get data on them. Now that the data and price are out and known, there are not many applications for them. At first they were billed to be used in EV's which quickly turned out to be a pile of poop because of the very poor density and high resistance. Density is not much of an issue with storage if space is not an issue. But resistance and Peukert is a huge issue couple with $/wh makes them useless for most applications. They will be a niche product for markets like emergency lightning in the mining industry, signal lights for rail road, telemetry and other low energy density applications where cost is not a factor.

If you want to spend that kind of money use LFP for 1/3 the cost and no headaches. It is not rocket science.

[northerner]

No not really.

It takes a 200 AH FLA to equal 100 AH of LFP. For example 24 volt 400 AH using Rolls S-530's will run you about $1400. 16 Calb 200 AH cells will run you about $2000. Using Aquion you cannot access the last 40% of the capacity and you pay a lot to Mr Peukert and to Equal 400 AH of FLA is going to require 560 AH at a cost of $6000. Not even remotely close to being competitive to either FLA or LFP. There is no way to make the economics work in any application. You are talking 300 to 400% higher prices. John Doe public may not figure it out but any pro can see it immediately once they look into the details. Cycle life is equal in all 3 applications. It just comes down to dollars.

How do you figure that cycle life is equal in all 3 batteries? I compared all 3 types of batteries at an average DOD of 50%. The published cycle life for the L16's I'm using (Trojan) is 1700. For the Balqon it's 5000 cycles (at 50% DOD) and for the Aquion it's 6000 cycles. I think it's fair to compare with an average DOD at 50%, as that's all that's economically available for FLA's.

[Sunking]

FLA, LFP, and Aquion's sodium ion batteries are all close to the same cost if you factor in cycle life.

No not really.

It takes a 200 AH FLA to equal 100 AH of LFP. For example 24 volt 400 AH using Rolls S-530's will run you about $1400. 16 Calb 200 AH cells will run you about $2000. Using Aquion you cannot access the last 40% of the capacity and you pay a lot to Mr Peukert and to Equal 400 AH of FLA is going to require 560 AH at a cost of $6000. Not even remotely close to being competitive to either FLA or LFP. There is no way to make the economics work in any application. You are talking 300 to 400% higher prices. John Doe public may not figure it out but any pro can see it immediately once they look into the details. Cycle life is equal in all 3 applications. It just comes down to dollars.

[northerner]

That works out to 45-cents per watt hours which is more than LiFeP04 \, and more than 100% for FLA batteries.

FLA, LFP, and Aquion's sodium ion batteries are all close to the same cost if you factor in cycle life.

Problem with lead acid batteries is having to stay on top of the charging, doing absorptions and EQ's, plus adding water occasionally. I am currently using lead acid batteries, and as they're aging, performance is decreasing as well.

I'm hoping for a better alternative when my current set of L16's die!

[Sunking]

I see that the Aquion S20 is available retail at the Alt E store. It is listed at over $1100 USD for a 51ah 48 volt stack.

That works out to 45-cents per watt hours which is more than LiFeP04 \, and more than 100% for FLA batteries.

[northerner]

I see that the Aquion S20 is available retail at the Alt E store. It is listed at over $1100 USD for a 51ah 48 volt stack. Looks like battery efficiency varies significantly with rate of discharge. Could be a good choice in an application with relatively low discharge rates. Cycle life is listed at 6000 cycles at 50% DOD. I think one would need a significant number of stacks (and likely deep back pocket) to make it work for regular off grid usage.