Aquion Energy up and coming battery....opinions please

[northerner]

Ya know, I honestly have to say I am uneasy of an extended warranty on a battery that is advertised to go to 100% DOD. I am not big on extended warranties in the first place, but on a battery?

I see that as an advantage. Take either FLA or LFP batteries down to 100% DOD, and it's game over for them!

Also, it wouldn't mean that you would operate down to 100% on a regular basis with Aquion's batteries, but will give you piece of mind knowing you can take them there with minimal consequence. That's the real warranty, ie the one that's not required.

[Living Large]

I see that as an advantage. Take either FLA or LFP batteries down to 100% DOD, and it's game over for them!

Also, it wouldn't mean that you would operate down to 100% on a regular basis with Aquion's batteries, but will give you piece of mind knowing you can take them there with minimal consequence. That's the real warranty, ie the one that's not required.

You see a paltry two year warranty as an "advantage"?

A battery that can be taken down to 100% DOD should be idiot proof - and thus should have far better than a 2 year warranty. That was my point. Not the peace of mind that comes with spending $30,000-45,000 on a huge bank of batteries and seeing it fail in year #3.

I am talking about the warranty that IS required.

[Sunking]

[QUOTE=northerner;135866]I see that as an advantage. Take either FLA or LFP batteries down to 100% DOD, and it's game over for them!/QUOTE]True for lithium, not true for FLA. You can take FLA all the way down and still get the warranty. Although that falls under abuse as would be for Aquion or any battery. If Aquion could do what they claim should have no problem with a 10 year free full replacement warranty like EV's come with. Nope only two years, and 5 optional years at extra cost on a battery that is way over priced.

You might think that is good, but IMO puts you on an Island all by yourself.

[northerner]

You see a paltry two year warranty as an "advantage"?

A battery that can be taken down to 100% DOD should be idiot proof - and thus should have far better than a 2 year warranty. That was my point. Not the peace of mind that comes with spending $30,000-45,000 on a huge bank of batteries and seeing it fail in year #3.

I am talking about the warranty that IS required.

I believe the 2 year warranty is there to cover possible manufacturing deficiencies. If the specs about the batteries hold true, the warranty beyond should not be necessary as the product is designed to provide a long life and lower overall cost in return. Providing a longer standard warranty may be a deal breaker for some, and there are other alternatives, if that is a concern, especially given that there is little feedback on this product at this point. I'm optimistic that these batteries will pan out in time.

[northerner]

I see that as an advantage. Take either FLA or LFP batteries down to 100% DOD, and it's game over for them!/QUOTE]True for lithium, not true for FLA. You can take FLA all the way down and still get the warranty. Although that falls under abuse as would be for Aquion or any battery. If Aquion could do what they claim should have no problem with a 10 year free full replacement warranty like EV's come with. Nope only two years, and 5 optional years at extra cost on a battery that is way over priced.

You might think that is good, but IMO puts you on an Island all by yourself.

I have seen that this battery does perform and I'm not concerned about long term warranties. The only thing I would like to see is a further reduction in price, something which is scheduled to happen in time.

By the way, I don't live on an island.

[Living Large]

[QUOTE=northerner;135880]

I have seen that this battery does perform and I'm not concerned about long term warranties. The only thing I would like to see is a further reduction in price, something which is scheduled to happen in time.

By the way, I don't live on an island.

Where have you seen the battery perform?

[Sunking]

Where have you seen the battery perform?

Think you have a typo in the Quote field. Those are not my words.

[Living Large]

Think you have a typo in the Quote field. Those are not my words.

Dereck - there is a formatting error in post #110 by northerner, which caused the editor to incorrectly attribute you as the author. While the editor indeed incorrectly attributes my reply to you, I was replying to to northerner, which you can easily see by looking back. I will post another, and see if I can correct it.

[Living Large]

I have seen that this battery does perform and I'm not concerned about long term warranties. The only thing I would like to see is a further reduction in price, something which is scheduled to happen in time.

Where have you seen the battery perform?

[northerner]

Where have you seen the battery perform?

I personally haven't seen the battery perform and that is why I asked new users to chime in with their experience with the Aquion batteries.

Aquion has sent out stacks for independent testing and that is the performance I quoted about. The specs the company put out, providing they hold true, indicate that this battery will potentially give a very long cycle life, and lower overall cost.

Do the costing of $ per kwh factoring in cycle life yourself if your not convinced. No other battery out there is more cost effective at current prices!

[Sunking]

I personally haven't seen the battery perform and that is why I asked new users to chime in with their experience with the Aquion batteries.

Don't hold your breath waiting. Well heck even if you breath, you will still be dead before anyone chimes in.

[Living Large]

The specs the company put out, providing they hold true, indicate that this battery will potentially give a very long cycle life, and lower overall cost.

Do the costing of $ per kwh factoring in cycle life yourself if your not convinced. No other battery out there is more cost effective at current prices!

I have run the numbers. You yourself said they are too expensive, but you are also saying they are more cost effective. I guess that is if I am willing to believe they last 10 years and I am willing to take out a mortgage now. But the warranty is 2 years. For me they don't add up at all. I am planning a low insolation in winter location, and need at least 3 days of backup. With the Aquion battery, I would need to add extra capacity simply because I can't use a good portion of the energy storage at lower than 42V. So now when I go to charge using my generator, I'll have to run it for 8-12 hours. Fuel costs and maintaining the generator has to be added to your comparison.

Contrast this to LFP, where I only have to run the generator maybe 3-4 hours. And I don't need to provide an entire room to store them and have a hoist on hand in case they need to be moved. Maybe your application fits - mine didn't. LFP looks far better for me, by adding the proper provisions needed to keep from ruining them. Before AHI I would go to FLA, which would add maintenance add weight, and take away some risk. I did like what I saw first with AHI. The last straw was the 30-59V window.

[Living Large]

The specs the company put out, providing they hold true, indicate that this battery will potentially give a very long cycle life, and lower overall cost.

I have a question. Did the specs the company put out include the internal resistance? Dereck calculated it to be 75 milliohms for a 48V 540Ah bank, which is huge: http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...atteries/page3

This is a large part of why I can't use this battery - I'd be running my generator for many hours for each recharge for months each year - and possibly year round because charging in general will be a real challenge.

[northerner]

I have run the numbers. You yourself said they are too expensive, but you are also saying they are more cost effective. I guess that is if I am willing to believe they last 10 years and I am willing to take out a mortgage now. But the warranty is 2 years. For me they don't add up at all. I am planning a low insolation in winter location, and need at least 3 days of backup. With the Aquion battery, I would need to add extra capacity simply because I can't use a good portion of the energy storage at lower than 42V. So now when I go to charge using my generator, I'll have to run it for 8-12 hours. Fuel costs and maintaining the generator has to be added to your comparison.

Contrast this to LFP, where I only have to run the generator maybe 3-4 hours. And I don't need to provide an entire room to store them and have a hoist on hand in case they need to be moved. Maybe your application fits - mine didn't. LFP looks far better for me, by adding the proper provisions needed to keep from ruining them. Before AHI I would go to FLA, which would add maintenance add weight, and take away some risk. I did like what I saw first with AHI. The last straw was the 30-59V window.

As I mentioned, up front cost with AHI will likely be higher than FLA or LFP batteries. When you factor in total cost of ownership, and if the specs that the company post hold true, will be lower after factoring in cycle life.

If you are not willing to take the risk, and have issues with the warranty, then best to shop else where. These batteries are not for everyone as has been mentioned previously.

With my setup, I have generator run time in winter, irregardless of how much storage I have. I run the generator for an average of 3-5 hours nearly everyday for about a 2 month period.

The Aquion batteries should be sized to allow between a 25% and 50% DOD on average, which will allow for higher load handling. There is really no difference with other chemistry's. FLA is recommended 20-30% DOD and LFP is recommended 35% DOD. LFP's have a slight advantage with higher overall efficiency, but that is not enough to overcome the overall cost savings with AHI.

[northerner]

I have a question. Did the specs the company put out include the internal resistance? Dereck calculated it to be 75 milliohms for a 48V 540Ah bank, which is huge: http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...atteries/page3

This is a large part of why I can't use this battery - I'd be running my generator for many hours for each recharge for months each year - and possibly year round because charging in general will be a real challenge.

If you size your bank accordingly then recharging won't be an issue. What is your daily usage expected to be and what will the highest load be on your proposed system?