Aquion Energy up and coming battery....opinions please

[bcroe]

I can answer that one. Simple they did not have 48 volt plants. The 20 volt battery was at your house locally. Your local telephone technician visited your home once every 6 months to inspect your battery and replace it is needed. Only power the Telco supplied was the AC signal to ring your bell via a hand crank magneto powered by the operators hand and arm. The modern -48 volt plant did not originate until rotary step switching came into play in the 1910's when a Undertaker invented the line finder switch concept.

1910 is about what I expected. It replaced phones with a pair of big "telephone service" dry cells
inside those wall mount crank up phones. I think I remember seeing my uncle replace them himself.
That dial system (to replace operators) was something not invented by AT&T.

The chargers for electric vehicles would reside at the home of the vehicle, so I wouldn't expect
any vehicle battery chargers at a service center till 1912. I would find it interesting to see just
how the DC to charge those battery powered vehicles was produced, starting in 1859 you say?
Perhaps the first used a motor generator set or rotating syncronous contacts, followed by gas
tubes and chemical rectifiers, then semiconductors. Maybe some ran direct from Edisons short
lived DC utility power. Radios got low power vacuum rectifiers about the 20s. Bruce Roe

[Sunking]

I wonder what the phone co used for the 48V plant when office powered phones were
introduced? Bruce Roe

I can answer that one. Simple they did not have 48 volt plants. The 20 volt battery was at your house locally. Your local telephone technician visited your home once every 6 months to inspect your battery and replace it is needed. Only power the Telco supplied was the AC signal to ring your bell via a hand crank magneto powered by the operators hand and arm. The modern -48 volt plant did not originate until rotary step switching came into play in the 1910's when a Undertaker invented the line finder switch concept.

[Sunking]

Cadillac introduced the battery powered starter in 1912, so car equipment could go back to then.

Bruce the first commercial Electric Vehicle was offered in 1859 and became popular when the Lead Acid Battery was invented in 1881. EV's and Steamer's were the first cars and thus the creation of the NiFe Edison battery. In 1912 vehicles were powered 40% steam, 38% Electric, 22% gasoline. By 1920 electric and steam were DOA.

The decline of electric and steam did start in 1912 as that is when the electric starter was introduced on gas models by Cadilac. By 1920 the last of the EV's and Steamers were all bankrupt and out of biz along with Edison's NiFe battery which he never renewed the patent. But Edison's battery company is still around today under a different name. Some dump/dive of a company name called GE.

[bcroe]

Actually, it dates back to the teens. The 60's is when I saw it as a boy. Tungar comes from TUNgsten/ARgon, though I can see why you thought of mercury rectifiers. This was an argon rectifier. It glows yellowish white. Yours is more common, as people charged their radio batteries, I think. My dad's was something you wouldn't normally see other than in a place where you had numerous batteries to charge at once. I don't believe any consumer item would have had two bulbs. My recollection is the high range put out 90V or more, and batteries then were 6V. Yeah, that would be like 15 in one string. I think it would handle multiple strings in parallel. This may have been good for solar system maintenance, but I sold it two years ago before I ever anticipated a use for it. DOH!
These were also used in power supplies for movie theater equipment in the old days.

Cadillac introduced the battery powered starter in 1912, so car equipment could go back to then. So
I can add argon rectifiers to the list of devices I played with (but didn't know it)? Probably better in
a museum; I have worked on century old heavy equipment, and from a safety point of view it was
really scary. I wonder what the phone co used for the 48V plant when office powered phones were
introduced? Bruce Roe

[Living Large]

I think it was from the 30s & 40s; those glowing tubes were mercury vapor rectifiers, as
vacuum tubes couldn't handle the current, and silicon rectifiers came after the transistor.
I had a related single battery charger, with just one big tube. Bruce Roe

Actually, it dates back to the teens. The 60's is when I saw it as a boy. Tungar comes from TUNgsten/ARgon, though I can see why you thought of mercury rectifiers. This was an argon rectifier. It glows yellowish white. Yours is more common, as people charged their radio batteries, I think. My dad's was something you wouldn't normally see other than in a place where you had numerous batteries to charge at once. I don't believe any consumer item would have had two bulbs. My recollection is the high range put out 90V or more, and batteries then were 6V. Yeah, that would be like 15 in one string. I think it would handle multiple strings in parallel. This may have been good for solar system maintenance, but I sold it two years ago before I ever anticipated a use for it. DOH!

These were also used in power supplies for movie theater equipment in the old days.

[bcroe]

First, my dad had a Tungar charger - the model that would be in an auto shop, with a rack of like 24 6V batteries in series on charge. He probably had three hygrometers. The 80 pound Tungar mounted on the wall, and had two large tubes with a pleasant glow. But the whole thing kind of turned me off - stocking distilled water, charging with caps off and bubbling electrolyte, checking specific gravity and comparing cell A to cell B, worrying about gas and acid spillage. Hey, it was the 60's, days of leaded gasoline and all.

I think it was from the 30s & 40s; those glowing tubes were mercury vapor rectifiers, as
vacuum tubes couldn't handle the current, and silicon rectifiers came after the transistor.
I had a related single battery charger, with just one big tube. Bruce Roe

[Living Large]

What I think you have missed is AGM cost twice that of FLA and last only half as long. Essentially long term is going to cost you 400% more. If those are cheap AGM expect to replace them every year or two.

No, I didn't miss either of those items.

If Chris' method is workable, I've already reduced the battery capacity by 66%. It's all relative. I'd be willing to pay the premium. It isn't all about the price tag, as I tried to communicate above. I am not looking at "cheap" batteries. I'm planning to buy an XM inverter - I wouldn't waste my money on cheap batteries. I don't know what the best are, but I was looking at the Rolls data sheet to do some numbers. They hold themselves out as "premium deep cycle" batteries.

[Sunking]

What I think you have missed is AGM cost twice that of FLA and last only half as long. Essentially long term is going to cost you 400% more. If those are cheap AGM expect to replace them every year or two.

[Living Large]

Why throw out the cheapest and most flexible option?

Fair question. You know each kind has its list of pros and cons. I do hear what you are saying. Let me try to explain my thinking...

First, my dad had a Tungar charger - the model that would be in an auto shop, with a rack of like 24 6V batteries in series on charge. He probably had three hygrometers. The 80 pound Tungar mounted on the wall, and had two large tubes with a pleasant glow. But the whole thing kind of turned me off - stocking distilled water, charging with caps off and bubbling electrolyte, checking specific gravity and comparing cell A to cell B, worrying about gas and acid spillage. Hey, it was the 60's, days of leaded gasoline and all. Dad was quite at home in the garage tending to his flock of batteries. Had large incandescent bulbs he used to cycle them. Luckily we have electronics to do a lot of this work now. Yes, it is off grid and I may be looking for things to occupy my time, but I'd like to limit the labor.

My system will be in the basement of my house, so I'd really like to not deal with unsealed batteries. Call it a mental thing. I get the economy of FLA - especially considering what I saw in the jump from AHI to AGM. FLA might be 50% of AGM. But I like the mostly sealed aspect and less outgassing. One source I saw says AGM can go to 80% DOD vs 50% for FLA - that caught my eye because I'm leaning towards an undersized (by convention standards) battery bank as user ChrisOlson argues in the pinned thread here. My use will be the same as what he described - off grid house with generator backup. I don't mind running my generator a reasonable amount if it is cost effective, which Chris argues is the case. I haven't studied his post and replies in enough detail yet, but as I read through the entire thread, I kept saying "yes, yes yes." It all made sense. Batteries cost a ton, and weigh a ton, and take up space. When they inevitably have to be replaced, spending half and moving half sounds great. You may recall Chris advises in his experience going to 80% DOD routinely works fine, against common advice and specifications. If AGM is advertised to go to 80% all the better. On this topic, I have spoken to two solar installation professionals, and one with 15 years experience living off grid said "3 days off grid min capacity and more solar than you need" and the other, with only 5 years industry experience said "oh yes, undersized is what I advise." So there are all kinds of thoughts, which is interesting.

Those are the chief things I am considering. It would neat to know what % of systems use each kind of battery. My guess is FLA is way out in front. Now I know not everyone drinks from the same fountain as Chris - but even if I end up limiting to 50% DOD, I may wind up with AGM. Let's say I pay $2000 more over 8 years for AGM vs FLA. $2000/8 = $250 a year. I'd pay that premium for peace of mind that may be real or imagined - like I say it is a mental thing.

[russ]

I don't want to work with non-sealed lead acid at this point.

Why throw out the cheapest and most flexible option?

[Living Large]

Once you factor in battery voltage sag, connection and wire losses you are now looking at 45 to 46 volts. One critical spec the manufacture is hiding is the battery internal resistance is very high, higher than FLA which brings on a whole new set of problems. It means they cannot deliver very high load currents, which means lots of voltage sag under load.

Just today I looked at AGM batteries, and was very favorably impressed with what I could get for the money - quite a bit less cost than AHI and they will perform better. I didn't understand that I couldn't go under 40V at first. A lot less weight. And they are proven. For the moment, I am off the AHI novelty, which I admit I was enamored with. I don't want to work with non-sealed lead acid at this point.

[Sunking]

Yeah, this is a good discussion. I believe the Scheider guy I was speaking with mentioned many inverters not being good for less than 40V. That's bad enough (actually the performance looked workable for my needs). But now I see the XW inverter itself has a minimum input of 44V. That usable window is getting narrower and narrower.

Once you factor in battery voltage sag, connection and wire losses you are now looking at 45 to 46 volts. One critical spec the manufacture is hiding is the battery internal resistance is very high, higher than FLA which brings on a whole new set of problems. It means they cannot deliver very high load currents, which means lots of voltage sag under load.

[Living Large]

Ditto that was my point. Charging is easy, but 48 volt inverters shut down at 45 to 46 volts.

Yeah, this is a good discussion. I believe the Scheider guy I was speaking with mentioned many inverters not being good for less than 40V. That's bad enough (actually the performance looked workable for my needs). But now I see the XW inverter itself has a minimum input of 44V. That usable window is getting narrower and narrower.

[Sunking]

Charging batteries is quite different than using them to run an inverter,

Ditto that was my point. Charging is easy, but 48 volt inverters shut down at 45 to 46 volts.

[Mike90250]

I know that Midnite Solar has one they were testing with so one would think they are going to support them in some way. It would be a place to check on their answer.

Charging batteries is quite different than using them to run an inverter, you may end up having to only use the upper 60% of capacity. I've got somewhat the same issue with my NiFe bank, it too has a wide empty-full range.