Aquion Energy up and coming battery....opinions please

[Sunking]

My impression was that Aquion batteries might be best suited for off grid and microgrid, because I had read this page:
http://www.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-energy-storage

Makes for a good PR. But many problems and misleading claims. Example they claim High Efficiency. How is that possible with high internal resistance?

[SunEagle]

My impression was that Aquion batteries might be best suited for off grid and microgrid, because I had read this page:

http://www.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-energy-storage

But I wouldn't know what attributes one would look for. Are you referring to AC-coupled?

There seems to be a large influx of people into this Forum looking for a way to utilize their grid tie solar panels when the grid goes down. That involves some type of hybrid inverter/charging equipment and batteries.

As of now the least expensive battery is an FLA type. If Aquion has discovered a less expensive way to store solar energy there may be a bigger market than just people that choose to go off grid.

Based on the preliminary data from Aquion their battery technology may or may not be a better solution to what is currently available. To meet the my "better" category I would like to see something that involves either much longer life, or higher energy density or much lower price then FLA systems. I'm still looking.

[Living Large]

That link to the blog concerning the Redwood Gate Ranch off grid system was interesting but not necessarily relevant to anyone that may be thinking of a hybrid grid tie system.

My impression was that Aquion batteries might be best suited for off grid and microgrid, because I had read this page:

http://www.aquionenergy.com/microgrid-energy-storage

But I wouldn't know what attributes one would look for. Are you referring to AC-coupled?

[AquionEnergy]

Aquion Energy - A link in one post to real specs and the number of units sold to date would be good.

[edit]It seems that links may not be allowed in the forums, so here are the spec sheets as attachments instead.[/edit]
S20-008F Product Specification Sheet.pdf
M100-L082 Product Specification Sheet.pdf

We have about 1.4 MWh of batteries in the field, which translates into roughly 600 of our S-Line battery stacks. Beyond that, we have about the same number of units currently on order by customers as well.

That link to the blog concerning the Redwood Gate Ranch off grid system was interesting but not necessarily relevant to anyone that may be thinking of a hybrid grid tie system.

I do understand that we don't have a lot of information yet on hybrid grid tied systems. This is one of the pieces of content that we plan to work on, but we only have a small team of people that work on these pieces, so it can take us a bit of time to produce. I'd be happy to PM you to let you know when we do have something that might be more relevant to you.

I don't want to violate any of the policies that the forum has about salespeople, but if there are any other questions I can answer without violating these policies, I would be happy to do so as best I can.

- AM

[Sunking]

Yep - but I was hoping to get some attempt at real information published by Aquion - if they can't produce that then all they claim is BS. The battery specs seem to be top secret - as in, "just buy it - you will be happy".

If that is the best they can do then it is time to close them off.

Amy supplied specs. Go read my verdict here post #21. Not pretty limited to C/40.

[russ]

Its a salesman. You really did not expect anything relevant did you?

Russ isn't there a policy about salesman here?

Yep - but I was hoping to get some attempt at real information published by Aquion - if they can't produce that then all they claim is BS. The battery specs seem to be top secret - as in, "just buy it - you will be happy".

If that is the best they can do then it is time to close them off.

[Sunking]

That link to the blog concerning the Redwood Gate Ranch off grid system was interesting but not necessarily relevant to anyone that may be thinking of a hybrid grid tie system.

Its a salesman. You really did not expect anything relevant did you?

Russ isn't there a policy about salesman here?

[SunEagle]

Aquion Energy - A link in one post to real specs and the number of units sold to date would be good.

That link to the blog concerning the Redwood Gate Ranch off grid system was interesting but not necessarily relevant to anyone that may be thinking of a hybrid grid tie system.

[russ]

Aquion Energy - A link in one post to real specs and the number of units sold to date would be good.

[Sunking]

Thank you for considering us. I do understand that our batteries may not be a fit for everyone or every application.

I also apologize that we haven't gotten back to your response in a timely manner.

In any case, it seems that you have decided to go in a different direction for your energy storage solution. Nonetheless, if would like, please feel free to send a PM with your contact information. I will personally ensure that we get one of our sales engineers in touch to better answer some of your questions.

- AM

I see two issues with the product:

• Internal Resistance
• Steep Voltage Discharge Curve

I know from reading earlier PR the battery was thought to target the Electric Vehicle market. However due to high internal resistance and very low Specific Energy Density wh/Kg makes them unusable for that market sector. Specific Energy Density is not a concern with RE applications as weight is not a deciding factor although space might be an issue for some. But high Internal Resistance is a real issue couple with steep Discharge Curves.

Having said that Steep Discharge Curves can be overcome providing equipment is manufactured to work with it. Or one can just accept the fact they cannot utilize the energy when SOC falls below 40%. But that kind of negates the purpose. But High Internal Resistance is a problem because it means for high current applications one would have to grossly oversize the battery and that gets real expensive real fast.

The other problem I find is getting real specs. That indicates a problem with the product like high internal resistance.

[AquionEnergy]

Thank you for considering us. I do understand that our batteries may not be a fit for everyone or every application.

I also apologize that we haven't gotten back to your response in a timely manner.

In any case, it seems that you have decided to go in a different direction for your energy storage solution. Nonetheless, if would like, please feel free to send a PM with your contact information. I will personally ensure that we get one of our sales engineers in touch to better answer some of your questions.

- AM

[Living Large]

Hello everyone. Our team here at Aquion Energy found this thread and wanted to offer some responses that we hope will help address some of your questions.

{snip}
I'm glad to see you posted something here. I emailed a rep of yours 3 weeks ago asking for confirmation of what products are current, and the price on an individual battery stack. I haven't received a reply.

This quote was a porton of one of my posts:

It isn't clear at a glance to a newbie like myself what amount of DOD one would achieve if restricted to a 40V minimum.

Your reply:

This really depends on the rate at which you are using the batteries. If your system is dealing with longer durations, you should be able to get to a high DOD even restricted to a 40 V minimum. As we continue to release new iterations of our products, we plan to deliver more energy within your typical voltage window.

doesn't really answer the question, but does acknowledge that there is a misalignment of operating window.

You stated:

Many of the inverters that we have seen have a low voltage cutoff of 40-42 V.

but you didn't address this explanation that Sunking gave for citing "45V":

Once you factor in battery voltage sag, connection and wire losses you are now looking at 45 to 46 volts. One critical spec the manufacture is hiding is the battery internal resistance is very high, higher than FLA which brings on a whole new set of problems. It means they cannot deliver very high load currents, which means lots of voltage sag under load.

I wish you success, but as one who was giving serious consideration to your product, the deal breaker was once I discovered that the usable voltage window does not align with RE equipment. I was willing to pay a premium to get in, but I couldn't justify not being able to use the battery to its rated capacity. Intuitively, it just seemed like a bad fit.

[AquionEnergy]

Hello everyone. Our team here at Aquion Energy found this thread and wanted to offer some responses that we hope will help address some of your questions.

Unless you are in this commercially, the energy-density (physical size), and cost may not make it ideal for most of the readers here.

Many of our customers are residential. We find that often, when comparing AHI to lead acid, the footprint of each system will be similar when sized the same (considering the DOD limitations of lead acid).

Our residential customers often install our batteries in their garages, basements, or similar spaces. Here is one such example: http://blog.aquionenergy.com/a-look-...ood-gate-ranch

That blog post includes a link to download a more extensive white paper looking at the installation.

It isn't clear at a glance to a newbie like myself what amount of DOD one would achieve if restricted to a 40V minimum.

This really depends on the rate at which you are using the batteries. If your system is dealing with longer durations, you should be able to get to a high DOD even restricted to a 40 V minimum. As we continue to release new iterations of our products, we plan to deliver more energy within your typical voltage window.

It means there is no equipment compatible with it. I assume you are talking about a 48 volt nominal system, and 45 volts is as low as it can go.

So far everything I have read about them is extremely disappointing. As for EV's completely useless with a Specific Energy Density of 20 wh/Kg meaning it would take a 10 pounds of battery to do the job of a 1 pound lithium. On the Renewable Energy side Specific Energy Density is not that big of a deal if space is not an issue because it will take up twice the volume of conventional Pb batteries. But the nail in the coffin is th ebattery voltage operating range of 1.25 to 2.45 volts per cell. For a 48 volt system would be 30 to 59 volts. 48 volt equipment shuts down at 45 volts. No equipment will work with it as of now.

Many of the inverters that we have seen have a low voltage cutoff of 40-42 V. Here are a few examples that either we or our customers have used:

• SMA Sunny Island - http://www.sma-america.com/products/...s-6048-us.html
• Schneider Conext XW - http://www.schneider-electric.com/pr...654-conext-xw/
• Outback Radian Series GS8048 - http://www.outbackpower.com/outback-...-series-gs8048

We are inverter agnostic and do not recommend any specific inverters, but these are a few with which we have demonstrated operability with our batteries.

If there are any further questions, we are available and happy to help as much as we can!

[Living Large]

My dad worked for Western Electric and later Bell Labs from 1927 to 1969 and could offer information if he were still alive. The Tungar patents on the charger we had dated to 1918, and I haven't seen dates prior to that. Actually, our Tungar charger was produced for Western Electric, for purposes unknown.

Some interesting information you folks posted just above... I didn't realize the DC for what I assume morphed into loop current generated at the CO originated at each user's location. Of course, the CO probably looked a lot different than it does today - I suppose it was Martha down on the switchboard at some building in town.

Here is a link (I hope it is ok to post them) to a 1918 automotive advertisement. An early version of the Tungar charger we had is pictured at the lower left. http://tinyurl.com/lq2cosl

[Sunking]

Maybe some ran direct from Edisons short
lived DC utility power.

Well Manhattan Island NY was DC up to November 2007 just 7 short years ago.

Solid state rectifiers did not appear until the late 50's or early 60's. Before that was Vacuum Tube, Copper Oxide, and Selenium Metal were used.

The oldest I believe are still used today in high power and High Voltage are Mercury Arc rectifiers.

Then came Vacuum Tubes in late 1890's

Next in line I believe are Argon Gas Tubes aka Tungar made by Edison Electric in about the 1920's or there abouts. Not sure about the exact date.

Then in the late 50's Bell Labs developed the germanium solid state rectifiers that have evolved since then replacing all except Mercury Vapor Arc still used by power companies to rectify HVAC to HVDC for transport. No solid state device can handle that kind of voltage or current.