No generator, no problem!

[Wrybread]

> What part of "I won't argue with you" did you not understand?

Fair enough, but at this point I think you're spreading more misinformation about solar. Which is a shame given that you're a mod of this forum. 5kWh or even 2kWh by noon is most definitely not nothing in an RV, even in a massive class A. It is in a house though.

And I'm in no way conservative with electricity, I use as much as I want 24/7. I'm even about to put another batch of fresh caught salmon on the electric smoker, though unfortunately I don't do that often.

> You forgot the price of batteries in your simple math.

I left out batteries because most people already have them, whether they're mostly relying on a generator or not. But to keep it complete:

- 4 Trojan T105's = $160 each ($640). Or get the Costco (Interstate) 6 volt batteries at $80 to $100 each ($400). In my experience the Costco batteries are ok as long as you stay very on top of the maintenance, meaning keep them sufficiently charged, equalize them every month or two, and keep a close eye on their water level. If I was building a new system I'd definitely look at lithium batteries, the spread of ebikes has made really powerful lithium battery packs much much cheaper than even a year ago.

And thanks, I edited my post to include the batteries in the cost estimate.Even with batteries a rockin solar system is still cheaper than a Honda EU 2000, especially when you consider the gas. And sooooooooo much more of a joy to use, especially for your neighbors. And almost completely maintenance free (watering the batteries, which you need to do if you're charging your batts with a generator anyway).

[extrafu]

> I'm not sure I'd consider solar system now as 'dirt cheap'... as most statistics still show that solar power is still relatively expensive compared to other options.

Solar is expensive compared to other options when you're grid tied, but it's dirt cheap for an RV. A breakdown off the top of my head:

- 300 watt solar panels are about $200 each now. If you're on a budget look for ones with broken frames since they can't be used for grid-tied installs for code reasons and are as low as $60 each and work fine. So for 900 watts of solar that's $180 to $600.

- Tracer 40 amp charge controller is $180, or get the Morningstar for $350

- Xantrex 1000 watt inverter is $250. Or if you're on a budget get a cheapie inverter. And most people already have an inverter anyway.

- various wiring and fuses add another $100

Total is about $400 to $1300 for all the power you need. That's pretty cheap.

You forgot the price of batteries in your simple math.

[SunEagle]

I still don't understand what you (or these "99%") are using that consumes so much power. And my point is that ultimately I think you're incorrect. 2kWh is definitely not nothing in an RV. I'm in it essentially full time with multiple computers running all day. My iMac pulls the same as a TV. What else do you think people need to run?

What part of "I won't argue with you" did you not understand?

I am happy for you and wish other people would be as conservative with electricity. Most are not.

[Wrybread]

I still don't understand what you (or these "99%") are using that consumes so much power. And my point is that ultimately I think you're incorrect. 2kWh is definitely not nothing in an RV. I'm in it essentially full time with multiple computers running all day. My iMac pulls the same as a TV. What else do you think people need to run?

[SunEagle]

> Being able to live off of minimal electric usage is admirable but in reality 99% of the US population would run out of power before mid afternoon with only 5kWh available

Are you talking about regular houses? I'm only talking about RV solar here (the subject of this forum). There's no washing machines or dryers in an RV for example. In an RV, I think most people can live just fine with only solar, provided they're using sufficient modern solar. And most people still have solar systems that would be at home in the 90s, which I think is a shame.

I use power super extravagantly, without a thought given to conservation, and I rarely go over 2 kwh all day.

I won't argue with you about how little you use electricity compared to the vast majority of even RV'ers. 2 kWh is nothing and can disappear quickly.

I am not saying you are incorrect about solar and an RV. I am just saying that you are in a very small percentage of people that consume very little electricity. Congrats on your ability to do so.

[Wrybread]

> Being able to live off of minimal electric usage is admirable but in reality 99% of the US population would run out of power before mid afternoon with only 5kWh available

Are you talking about regular houses? I'm only talking about RV solar here (the subject of this forum). There's no washing machines or dryers in an RV for example. In an RV, I think most people can live just fine with only solar, provided they're using sufficient modern solar (and not solar systems that would be at home in the 90s). I literally never give a thought to power consumption, except for a month or so surrounding the solstice.

[SunEagle]

> I'm not sure I'd consider solar system now as 'dirt cheap'... as most statistics still show that solar power is still relatively expensive compared to other options.

Solar is expensive compared to other options when you're grid tied, but it's dirt cheap for an RV. A breakdown off the top of my head:

- 300 watt solar panels are about $200 each now. If you're on a budget look for ones with broken frames since they can't be used for grid-tied installs for code reasons and are as low as $60 each and work fine. So for 900 watts of solar that's $180 to $600.
- Tracer 40 amp charge controller is $180, or get the Morningstar for $350
- Xantrex 1000 watt inverter is $250. Or if you're on a budget get a cheapie inverter. And most people already have an inverter anyway.
- various wiring and fuses add another $100

Total is about $400 to $1300 for all the power you need. That's pretty cheap.

It still comes down to what you need in watt hours each day. Even 1000 watts of panels will get you at most maybe 5kWh which is a drop in the bucket for what most people use and need each day.

Being able to live off of minimal electric usage is admirable but in reality 99% of the US population would run out of power before mid afternoon with only 5kWh available

[Wrybread]

> I'm not sure I'd consider solar system now as 'dirt cheap'... as most statistics still show that solar power is still relatively expensive compared to other options.

Solar is expensive compared to other options when you're grid tied, but it's dirt cheap for an RV. A breakdown off the top of my head:

- 300 watt solar panels are about $200 each now. If you're on a budget look for ones with broken frames since they can't be used for grid-tied installs for code reasons and are as low as $60 each and work fine. So for 900 watts of solar that's $180 to $600.

- Tracer 40 amp charge controller is $180, or get the Morningstar for $350

- Xantrex 1000 watt inverter is $250. Or if you're on a budget get a cheapie inverter. And most people already have an inverter anyway.

- various wiring and fuses add another $100

Total is about $400 to $1300 for all the power you need. That's pretty cheap.

[Edited to add the battery bank below. I left that out because most people already have batteries, but to keep it complete, adding below]

- 4 Trojan T105 batteries = $160 each ($640). Or get the Costco (Interstate) 6 volt batteries at $100 each ($400). In my experience the Costco batteries are ok as long as you stay very on top of the maintenance, meaning keep them sufficiently charged, equalize them every month or two, and keep a close eye on their water level. If I was building a new system I'd definitely look at lithium batteries, the spread of ebikes has made really powerful lithium battery packs much much cheaper than even a year ago. And if I used lead acid I'd go 24 volt.

Even with the batteries that's comparable to a Honda EU 2000 or EU 3000, and no need to keep buying gas. And no need to handle gas, which is a massive benefit too. All the power you want, completely silently. And if you really need more power from time to time, you can still supplement it with a generator.

[Wrybread]

> Although I would say you are in the 1% of those that do not use or need a generator.

I'm also among the 1% in terms of solar capacity, and I don't think that's a coincidence.... Most RVs, including most of the people on this forum have outdated and tiny solar systems. I have a chair on the roof of my camper and I look at the other RVs and rarely see even a single modern solar panel on their roof tops. And I think that's largely because of misinformation. Install decent modern solar and you might be surprised how infrequently you need that gennie. You'll still need it for air conditioning but other than that, it'll sit quietly giving everyone a break.

[NCmountainsOffgrid]

I'm not sure I'd consider solar system now as 'dirt cheap'... as most statistics still show that solar power is still relatively expensive compared to other options.

Yes, I'll agree that you 'can' live only on solar, if you do things a certain way - but my own regards was just that while many of us 'want' to think that we can live only on solar, our real desires are to continue to have the things we are accustomed to, such as air conditioning, continuing to require a generator or shore power. When you add propane to the equation, you have somewhat diluted your original post that you 'live' on solar power, if I read it accurately - actually you are living on a combination of different power sources, not just solar, just like most any RVr. If you had no propane, what would your situation then look like?

I like the idea of total solar power, don't get me wrong, but I'm also a realist. The RVing community, especially those fairly new to the world, and who have purchased a 'solar ready' camper, many times don't really 'know' what the limitation and expenses area. Yes, it's a 'quiet' power source, but limited on the amount of power, and 'when' it can be harvested, not to mention the expense of not only the panels, themselves, but just as importantly the number and expense of the battery storage and inversion that is required. A generator, while not as quiet, is a constant power source, but only has to be used 'as needed', but can be used anytime, regardless of whether daylight or nightlight, or overcast/rainy weather. While it's not necessarily 'cheap', either, and requires a fuel source, they have been found to be very efficient in how they generator power.

I don't want to doubt anyone's ability to 'live' off of solar, but I also don't want others be led that it's quite that simple - though the solar industry would certainly want you to believe it.

Solar is a power source, just like batteries, propane, natural gas, generators, shore power, etc., but rarely are any of those the 'end all' to everything we need. Even though 120v electricity may be able to provide almost everything we need, with little exception, it also has it's own cost, which is why other power sources continue to be in play. They all work together, and each for it's own preferences and abilities.

Enjoy!

[Ho jo]

When I'm in the mountains for 4 months of summer
I park in the shade.
780 watts of Panels are in the sun.
Even without ac a fan in the window.
With long stretches of rain and the sun behind the mountains early morning and late afternoon.
With an average use of 1kw
Some times A generator is necessary to keep my 400+ ah bank charged. So I'm in the 99℅

[SunEagle]

> The idea of a 'generator-less' solar full-time RV is certainly possible, if you never need air conditioning, electric heat, or use any large draw type appliance or devices for very long runs,

Definitely can't run AC or electric heat off solar, but there's no reason to run electric heat in my opinion. Use propane for that.

I can run my propane heater blower though (which is 80 watts) as much as I need.

I think if someone is trying to run any electric heat source, including to make coffee, they're doing it wrong.

But my overall point is that people just don't have enough solar panels. 100 watts for example isn't even close to being enough, especially if it's a 12 volt panel. Ditch the electric heat and install modern solar (2 or 3 large panels and an MPPT charge controller) and you might be surprised how infrequently you need to fire up that gennie. And I'm guessing you know this if you're reading this forum but a 100 watt solar panel isn't going to keep your 4 batteries very happy except as a trickle charger.

As far as power consumption, I'm a programmer so have my laptop and iMac running pretty much all day, and often leave my laptop running all night. My girlfriend also runs a laptop all day with an external monitor. I sleep with a CPAP machine. I also do a lot of fiberglass boat and surfboard repair so am using a grinder and sander a good part of the day. My fridge used to run part time off AC but it's so inefficient off AC that I quit that, but not because of battery capacity issues. We run the usual lights and chargers as much as we want. I run whatever I want, as long as I want. I used to label every power source with it's exact wattage but I don't anymore because it's just not a factor. I haven't even reconnected my Trimetric power monitor. Since installing sufficient solar a few years ago I just don't need to even think about it.

Air conditioning is always going to be the exception, but it's the one thing people might need the gennie for. Other than that, people should be able to run everything they need off of just solar, with a sufficient solar system. Which is now dirt cheap and easy to install.

Congratulations on your ability to just run your loads just using PV in an RV. Although I would say you are in the 1% of those that do not use or need a generator.

Enjoy your freedom and thanks for your input.

[Wrybread]

> The idea of a 'generator-less' solar full-time RV is certainly possible, if you never need air conditioning, electric heat, or use any large draw type appliance or devices for very long runs,

Definitely can't run air conditioning or electric heat off solar, but there's no reason to run electric heat in my opinion. Use propane for that.

I can run my propane heater blower though (which is 80 watts) as much as I need.

I think if someone is trying to run any electric heat source, including to make coffee, they're doing it wrong. It's an easy adjustment, they just need to give a thought to their system.

But my overall point is that people just don't have enough solar panels. 100 watts for example isn't even close to being enough, especially if it's a 12 volt panel. Ditch the electric heat and install modern solar (2 or 3 large panels and an MPPT charge controller) and you might be surprised how infrequently you need to fire up that gennie. And I'm guessing you know this if you're reading this forum but a 100 watt solar panel isn't going to keep your 4 batteries very happy except as a trickle charger.

As far as power consumption, I'm a programmer so have my laptop and iMac running pretty much all day, and often leave my laptop running all night. My girlfriend also runs a laptop all day with an external monitor. I sleep with a CPAP machine. I also do a lot of fiberglass boat and surfboard repair so am using a grinder and sander a good part of the day. My fridge used to run part time off AC but it's so inefficient off AC that I quit that, but not because of battery capacity issues. We run the usual lights and chargers as much as we want. I run whatever I want, as long as I want. I used to label every power source with it's exact wattage but I don't anymore because it's just not a factor. I haven't even reconnected my Trimetric power monitor. Since installing sufficient solar a few years ago I just don't need to even think about it.

Air conditioning is always going to be the exception, but it's the one thing people might need the gennie for. Other than that, people should be able to run everything they need off of just solar, with a sufficient solar system. Which is now dirt cheap and easy to install.

[NCmountainsOffgrid]

I've read the OPs 'yeah' pronouncement with some skepticism, as I'm an RV owner, too, and have lived and traveled 'full time' for several years, and have conversed with many, many RVrs and others about this very 'solar' subject. It's one we all like to 'think' will give us total 'off-grid' living, but the ultimate reality is that 'how' we want to live impacts it's effectiveness.

The OP did not state 'how' he uses energy... no specifics. Also, it sounds as though it is for a 'single' person, as no one else is mentioned. There is no mention of summer heat and the need for air conditioning, though north of SF you may not 'need' much maybe.

I certainly LIKE the idea of a sustainable 'total solar output' idea for RVs, but the nature of RVing means that you will generally also be 'moving' periodically, and not parked extensively, which is more like what you'd find at a home, which can render a different, maybe more reasonable, solar benefit.


The idea of a 'generator-less' solar full-time RV is certainly possible, if you never need air conditioning, electric heat, or use any large draw type appliance or devices for very long runs, but the reality of RVing is that these things come into play, with few exceptions, and especially when your better-half demands it as part of the RVing experience. We want the benefits of a silent solar power source, but also continue to 'want' the use of the other appliances and devices within their RV that may require much more power, and for much longer than the batteries or the solar can sustain.

There are those who live on a single 100w panel. It does happen, it IS possible, but it's NOT common, and probably NOT what the majority of RVrs are considering when they say they 'want' Solar Power - they imagine that they can continue to do everything they have enjoyed doing while on shore power or generator power - not less.


I have a single 100w solar panel on my roof. I have 4 6v deep-charge FLA batteries for the House. Yes, I can 'live' also on only solar, if I must, but that would be a severe change in my daily habits and expectations, and probably a lot of sweat and sleepless nights to go with it, since I'm not in northern Cali. Those there may can attest to not needing air conditioning, at least during the summer, and those in Florida can attest to not needing it, in the winter : )

Congrats, and if the heat here in NE Alabama would subside, maybe I can join the 'generator-less' solar fans!

[Ho jo]

At latitude 37 in the mountains of Virginia you better have a generator. Last September it rained 27 days straight. Winters i stay 30 miles from Myrtle beach January it rained 21 days. So in my opinion it has to do with location.