Inverter and Battery capacity for washing machine

[Ho jo]

6kw @48 volts and 800 amp hrs
is there any thing it won't run.

[Mike90250]

6kw @48 volts and 800 amp hrs
is there any thing it won't run.

Won't run a big whole house air cond & electric range.

[Ho jo]

Greta Gremlin I'm in a rv so 12 volts for now. I have considered running the dc loads on my rv from my 12 volt 400 watt system. Then all inverted loads from a higher voltage and wattage system.

[Greta Gremlin]

Since building a whole new system will get pricey quick, these might be some money-saving options you could look into.


12 VOLT Options

1a) Best case scenario, you have an accurate idea of load requirements.
Your washing may have a good enough PF to make a 12v 1000watt inverter work.
And the 1000 watt inverter is capable of covering needed surge loads.
This would only require buying a good 12v inverter.


1b) Getting good appliances instead of more solar power.
If the washing machine is your highest load, then an getting an energy efficient washing machine will probably outweigh the costs of a separate 24v system (panels, CC, batteries, inverter, wiring).
Just will have to make sure the PF is good on the new washing machine.
The same would go for any appliances that you might've used for the separate 24v system.
This would only require buying a 12v inverter and new washing machine (or any other compatible appliances).
In the long term, the appliances would probably last longer than the cost of new batteries for that higher voltage system as well as the maintenance and the more things that could go wrong on the new system.
Appliances also may give you a better warranty.

[Ho jo]

Thanks for the detailed reply very informative gonna take some time to sort it out.My batteries are 10 months old so probably not a good idea to add 2 more. I could leave my 400 watt battery panels on pwm for rv dc loads 300 wh daily. I.can get 2 275 gt panels (Craigslist) for less than 2 of the 100 watt panels I have now. I have a 30 amp 100 voc mppt cc. Could handle 2 of the panels at 38 voc in series. On 24 volts 30.5 vmp in parrelell would be to low so 2 at 550 watts is the limit. So 4 batteries 208 amp hr $340 2 panels $200 24 volt inverter$?? Charger Racking wiring fusing.Can get expensive even for a small system. On a different note something I hadn't accounted for. Average jan low Temps are 28f degrees. My lead acids at that temp have 70 percent capacity. So I have to a just for that. Wouldn't you use average. Or record low temperature?

[Greta Gremlin]

Merging your current 12v system into a new 24v system might work..
What's your current 12v setup, brand of CC, battery ah?
Like you said, a major concern would be mixing old with new, I'm not sure when it is bad for batteries.
You might be able to if they haven't been heavily used, battery pros would know the right and wrong conditions.
If you go for that, you would still want access to your 12v needs if merging into a 24v system.

To make that possible, you could check into a DC to DC converter, that is 24v to 12v.

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum/solar-panels-for-home/solar-panel-system-equipment/325288-24v-to-12v-conversion-20a-12v-draws-20a-24v-or-10a-24v

These have a wattage rating, and there are few design types but from what I've read the Buck converter type is the one you'd be looking for.
Essentially, one that converts 100% power with no losses.
That way you could utilize your 24v system for 12v also.
I don't know the consensus on using DC to DC converters here.
Though could perhaps save money if recommended by those who know.

4x 6v 208 ah batteries for $340 sounds suspicious, for 2x sounds right.
I'd guess $600-800 more likely.
You might have to pay a core charge as well for the batteries if you aren't bringing in any old ones.
May be why the price is so low, hard to say, also could be old stock of unused batteries or they may be low quality/short lifespan.
Have others had good results with these? Sounds to be Sam's Club Golf Cart batteries but still might be okay.

Your estimated 24v system:
550 watts -> 30/100 CC -> 24v 208ah

The estimated price of the 24v system comes out at:
$200 + $230 + $340 = $770

And for a 24v inverter probably between $500-800 .

So total system cost for equipment would be:
$770 + $500-800 = $1270-1570
Like mentioned, add around $200 for racking, wiring, wiring terminals, fusing, other miscellaneous expenses
Guess maybe $1500-$1800 total ($1300-1600 discounting your CC).
That inverter could potentially be half the price of your system, kind of a slap in the face.

Then the charger, I'm seeing about another $400 for a battery charger at 24v.
There are lots of battery chargers but some do not have equalization capabilities.
Additionally, some manufacturers recommended using a higher voltage for their batteries than some equalizing chargers are capable of producing.
If that's the case you could look into a variable DC power supply.
Here is some good information on that.

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum/off-grid-solar/solar-living/18274-choosing-a-charger-that-can-equalize

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/124434-needed-battery-charger-equalization-desulfation-mode.html

Make sure it can charge battery, some kinds of DC power supplies won't be adequate.

http://www.mastechpowersupply.com/linear-vs-switching-power-supply.html

If you go for a DC power supply, you'll want to contact manufacturer to ensure that it is capable.
An example of what might work for you. This power supply could also equalize your 12v batteries.

http://mastechpowersupply.com/volteq-power-supply-hy5020ex-50v-20a-over-voltage-over-current-protection.html

I would ask others to see if this is a reliable brand or not, as well as the site being trustworthy.
Using DC power supply is my plan if CC equalization isn't adequate.
With added charger, looks to be $1900-2200 total ($1700-2000 discounting your CC).
My prediction is that you'll probably end up spending more like $2000-2500 for a new 24v system in the long run.

Depends on what you're trying to do, but you might be able to spend that money on something better suited.
I bet there are some very interesting things you could do instead with $2000.
What kind of system are you wanting? Selling current equipment to help fund your new system is an additional option.
What kind of loads are you trying to run and for how long?

If the better-appliances-for-12v-inverter option won't work for you,
I'd say the next simplest solution, like what you have been doing, is using a generator for those temporary heavy loads.
For the $1500-$2200 of a new 24v system, you could a get good inverter generator for a $1000 and $500-1200 in potential fuel.
Some advertise they can run 8+ hours on 1 gallon powering 500 watts. That'd be like a 0.25 cents an hour to power it.
Or just translate expenses into fuel to power your current generator. $1500-2200/$2 a gallon for fuel = 750-1100 gallons.
How long would that allow you to do what you want to do?
Or look at it in terms of gasoline vs batteries
Can $400 worth of fuel outlast the $400 worth of batteries in a 24v system to do what you want it to do?

As for battery temp, sizing for lowest temp will offer the biggest cushion.
Whatever method you use to size it, if you change battery capacity, then panel size will need to be adjusted as well.
If you have a battery isolator, that could soften the blow during cold temps since you are using RV.

[Ho jo]

Greta my 1700 generator runs 8 hrs on 2 gals 50% load fuel now here 1.88 per gal. 1 hr for 2 wash loads 440w/hrs Microwave 700 watt 10 mins daily 117 w/hrs . 2 slice toaster 840 watts 4 slices 8 mins 112 w/hrs? E blanket 400 w/hrs nightly. DC rv loads pump leds propane fridge 300 w/hrs daily. TV and dvd 45 watts 4 hrs 180 w/hrs. 1110w/hrs (Please check my math) Batterys are us battery 1800 $85 each $15 core so actually $400. My travel trailer is on a permanent spot. So an isolator wouldn't work. 1110 w/hrs x1.5 1665 x 3 days 4995 @24 volts 208 amp hrs @ 12 volts 416. Amp hrs. Array size 1665 divided by 3.9 sun hrs 426 watts.Charge rate for 208* .10 21 amps times 24 500 watt array. Planned on 550 watts on 30 amp controller.

[Ho jo]

Now washer and temperature calculations.record low -20f batteries are at 35 percent capacity WOW.

[Paul Land]

Merry Christmas and to all a good night!

[Sunking]

I might need some correcting on this.
For sizing your battery with inverter, you will want to consider two things; PF (power factor) and inverter efficiency.
I tested this on a mini fridge and the losses from PF alone is what steered me to 12 volt only appliances.

Sorry to butt in but you need a lot of help. You have come to the wrong conclusions and made poor decisions. Basically you know enough to be dangerous, but not near enough to apply it to anything.

PF is only a problem for Inverters and generators limiting how large a load they can handle. What you do not understand is the difference between True or Real Power, and Apparent Power.

PF = Real Power / Apparent Power

Example say 600 watts / 1000 Watts = PF 0.6.

For the moment assume the Inverter is 100% efficiency and operating at 12 volts. So here is where you are going wrong. How much power is actually being taken from the battery? I bet you would say 1000 watts right?

Wrong, dead wrong. It is only supplying 600 watts and at 12 volts is 50 amps. So how does PF come into play. Well if the Inverter above were say 1000 watts supplying 600 watts into a load with a PF = 0.6 means the Inverter is at maximum capacity and cannot supply any more Real Power because Apparent power is at the maximum limit of 1000 Volt Amps. Real Power is the heat energy or real work being done. Think of Volt-Amps like a politician or News Media with a PF = 0.5. Half of what is being said is pure fiction with a biased agenda.

That is only half the story of where you are screwing yourself. Low Voltage = Low Efficiency. That is why utilities run high voltage. Higher Voltage = lower initial installation cost and higher efficiency. 12 volts is is for low power TOYS and does not work well with higher power items. As the distance increases from the power source to the load, the more expensive and less efficient the system is. There are two ways to overcome the problem. Either increase the voltage or use much larger more expensive wire.

• If you increase the voltage, wiring cost goes down, efficiency goes up, and safety is improved.
• If you increase the wire size for lower voltages, you are going to spend a lot more on wire cost and increase, lower efficiency, and increase your chances of a fire and melt down.

So by your misplaced logic is leading you to poor decisions. You only know enough to be dangerous. Additionally being compounded by trying to answer questions you should not be answering. You are doing more harm than good.

[Paul Land]

Sorry to butt in but you need a lot of help. You have come to the wrong conclusions and made poor decisions. Basically you know enough to be dangerous, but not near enough to apply it to anything.

PF is only a problem for Inverters and generators limiting how large a load they can handle. What you do not understand is the difference between True or Real Power, and Apparent Power.

PF = Real Power / Apparent Power

Example say 600 watts / 1000 Watts = PF 0.6.

For the moment assume the Inverter is 100% efficiency and operating at 12 volts. So here is where you are going wrong. How much power is actually being taken from the battery? I bet you would say 1000 watts right?

Wrong, dead wrong. It is only supplying 600 watts and at 12 volts is 50 amps. So how does PF come into play. Well if the Inverter above were say 1000 watts supplying 600 watts into a load with a PF = 0.6 means the Inverter is at maximum capacity and cannot supply any more Real Power because Apparent power is at the maximum limit of 1000 Volt Amps. Real Power is the heat energy or real work being done. Think of Volt-Amps like a politician or News Media with a PF = 0.5. Half of what is being said is pure fiction with a biased agenda.

That is only half the story of where you are screwing yourself. Low Voltage = Low Efficiency. That is why utilities run high voltage. Higher Voltage = lower initial installation cost and higher efficiency. 12 volts is is for low power TOYS and does not work well with higher power items. As the distance increases from the power source to the load, the more expensive and less efficient the system is. There are two ways to overcome the problem. Either increase the voltage or use much larger more expensive wire.

• If you increase the voltage, wiring cost goes down, efficiency goes up, and safety is improved.
• If you increase the wire size for lower voltages, you are going to spend a lot more on wire cost and increase, lower efficiency, and increase your chances of a fire and melt down.

So by your misplaced logic is leading you to poor decisions. You only know enough to be dangerous. Additionally being compounded by trying to answer questions you should not be answering. You are doing more harm than good.

Lets K.I.S.S. Watts divided by Volts = Amps & Amps X Volts = Watts Ying&Yang

[Sunking]

lets k.i.s.s. Watts divided by volts = amps & amps x volts = watts ying&yang

kma

[Greta Gremlin]

Greta my 1700 generator runs 8 hrs on 2 gals 50% load fuel now here 1.88 per gal. 1 hr for 2 wash loads 440w/hrs Microwave 700 watt 10 mins daily 117 w/hrs . 2 slice toaster 840 watts 4 slices 8 mins 112 w/hrs? E blanket 400 w/hrs nightly. DC rv loads pump leds propane fridge 300 w/hrs daily. TV and dvd 45 watts 4 hrs 180 w/hrs. 1110w/hrs (Please check my math) Batterys are us battery 1800 $85 each $15 core so actually $400. My travel trailer is on a permanent spot. So an isolator wouldn't work. 1110 w/hrs x1.5 1665 x 3 days 4995 @24 volts 208 amp hrs @ 12 volts 416. Amp hrs. Array size 1665 divided by 3.9 sun hrs 426 watts.Charge rate for 208* .10 21 amps times 24 500 watt array. Planned on 550 watts on 30 amp controller.

If it were me, I wouldn't use any appliance that converts electricity to heat.
That can all be done by propane, all the way down to -20F degrees is when you might have trouble getting liquid to gas.
I paid $12 to have an empty 15 lb tank filled, and have used it generously for cooking and boiling water for well over a year now.
My cooking needs have been met for $12 or less a year. That is $1 or less a month.
That price is hard to pass up, taking into account that with propane I also have access to that heat 24/7/365.

Good cookware can do all the things a microwave and/or toaster can do.
For toasting you could look at a pie iron or a sandwich toaster.

I would be wary of electric blankets, when younger I used to get headaches around them.
According to this, EMF is higher than standing under high transmission power lines.
https://www.who.int/peh-emf/project/...ooklet2008.pdf


A good sleeping bag with a hot water bottle inside is indispenable for off-grid. And you will always have access to it,
An E blanket for your solar setup would have limited access in cold weather due to your battery capacity and even less if in a cloudy streak of weather.
A big problem since you will very much need that E blanket then.
A hot water bottle has kept me comfortably warm through winter stays, sometimes in the single digits.
Inside a good sleeping bag, hot water bottles will give off heat for several hours.
Water has one of the highest thermal capacities of substances you will find in nature.
And it works for both heating and cooling, get it to boiling or ice (phase change) and you have stored even more energy.
This along with some down blankets/comforters will keep you especially warm.

Another good investment would be a laptop computer in the place of a TV & DVD.
Laptops have battery power meaning you can charge them up during the day on solar and use them at night.
They will offer the capabilities of TV and DVD amongst numerous other applications.
There are TV tuners available for laptops and you can utilize your DVDs in a laptop computer.
If the laptop is charged, efficient ones may use anywhere from 3 watts to 20 watts under load.
You can also take the battery out and get the same results.
Even more useful, you can use them on a 12v battery with a cigarette lighter adapter, meaning no inverter needed and no power losses.

You estimated about 1600w/hrs daily,
If you do 24v 208ah then you have about 5000 w/hrs power
But don't go below 50% charged so that would be 2500 w/hrs usable
If you get one cloudy day you are going to be at 68% charged if daily needs are 1600 w/hrs.
Another one will put you at 36%.
How will you charge batteries if you've got a bad streak of weather?
What if this same scenario happens but in winter when temps put batteries at 70% capacity.
You will either need a bigger system or lower your daily needs.

My suggestion is to find a way to lower your daily needs.
Do all your heating/cooking with propane.
When it gets cold, boil up some water up via propane.
Then put that in a hot water bottle inside your sleeping bag/coat/blanket cocoon.
Hours of warmth with zero w/hrs required.
No microwave, toaster, or E blanket needed if you use propane this way.

That only leaves 480w/hrs daily.
You could check into 12v TVs and DVD players and can run them off 12v battery, you won't need a 12v inverter.
If you get a good laptop and can run that off 12v battery, you won't need a 12v inverter.
To do this put compatible cigarette lighter adapter for laptop into 12v outlet.
Your daily needs would be at 340-380 w/hrs in that case, possibly less.
If you use propane for heating/cooking, and go for 12v electronics.
400 w/hrs X 5 X 2 = 4,000 w/hrs then 4000/24v = 167 ah at 24v or 334 ah at 12v.
That's significantly lower.

The only thing left is the washing machine, which you run for an hour on the generator.
From what you've said, the price to run your laundry comes out at about 0.50 cents an hour.
If you do this once a week, 52 weeks * 0.50 = that's $26 dollars a year.
If you do what I do for the rest of your appliances on heating, you are looking at $12 a year propane for cooking.
Let's add another $12 of propane dedicated to boiling water during winter to keep warm.
$26+$12+$12 = $50 a year.

Depending on the amp hours of your current 12v setup, you might need not to do anything other than get a 12v TV/DVD or laptop with compatible adapter.
The 12v electronics could range anywhere from $10-1000 depending on what you want.
Here's a list of lower power computers.
http://www.tpcdb.com/list.php?page=1...ue_avg&type=13
You could try a raspberry pi, there is a strong following to unlocking the capabilites of this less than 3 watt computer.
Lots of tutorials and instructions and community support, still would need a TV/display though so more w/hrs.
A new or used laptop would have more capabilites, a display, as well as battery power, plus no need to learn coding/programming.

If the current system is 208ah at 12v you would have 3 days backup power at 400 w/hrs daily before you hit 50% discharge.
So after a purchase of 12v electronics equipment and $50 a year expenses for additional fuel you would be saving yourself a lot of money as opposed to a new system.

[Greta Gremlin]

Sorry to butt in but you need a lot of help. You have come to the wrong conclusions and made poor decisions. Basically you know enough to be dangerous, but not near enough to apply it to anything.
...
So by your misplaced logic is leading you to poor decisions. You only know enough to be dangerous. Additionally being compounded by trying to answer questions you should not be answering. You are doing more harm than good.

I've tried to make clear to Ho jo or anyone else reading the posts when my answers are uncertain and would need double checking.
Examples I said, "I might need correcting"... "thought experiments" ..."ask those who know".
When I can give some direction, I've tried to redirect Ho jo or anyone else interested to information with links with people who do know.

The thread I originally linked about PF reads as if the voltamps translates into actual power used. So the example I gave was based on that.
https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...-in-the-system

Now to calculate the load on the batteries we need to know the inverter efficiency. Lets say at this power level it is 90%. so the load on the batteries will be 50.4 / .6 / .9 = 94 watts. So when you were thinking all I had was 30 watts of CFL, you actually have a 94 watt load. The system uses 3 times more power than you thought. Surprise.

I respect that this forum provides free consultation from professionals and don't wish to abuse it.
If the information I am giving is bad, I will edit the posts and remove any potentially dangerous information at yours or any qualified person's request.

[Paul Land]

I've tried to make clear to Ho jo or anyone else reading the posts when my answers are uncertain and would need double checking.
Examples I said, "I might need correcting"... "thought experiments" ..."ask those you know".
When I can give some direction, I've tried to redirect Ho jo or anyone else interested to information with links with people who do know.
I respect that this forum provides free professional consultation and don't wish to abuse it.
If the information I am giving is bad, I will edit the posts and remove any potentially dangerous information at yours or any qualified person's request.

Dont worry there to many so-called experts here! You will see a pattern just ignore non-op replys. The moderators have sound advice.