Noob! Noob! Noob! - regarding the Grail - Where's the best deal on Cells please?

[green]

I'm not even going to bother answering this post directly. Other than to point out that DIY is indeed being blocked bog time by inspectors in order apparently to keep commercial installers in golf money. If you aren't going to contribute to this forum please post elsewhere.

I actually believed in the conspiracy theories regarding solar until recently. After much research I'm finding there are very good reasons for MOST of the regulations in place. It's actually mostly due to safety and accountability. I talked with my insurance company and they were fine with my homemade panels IF I didn't mount them directly on my roof or use them in ANY of the AC premises wiring (Grid Interconnection or off Grid AC). There are exceptions where I can run DC into my house but it must meet NEC Code. I believe the NEC even requires all components of a small DC system be listed by UL or equivalent, so there is no way to make that fly either. Anyways... I use all my homemade panels for small scale systems and experiments. All outside and not attached to my buildings. It is great fun and a wonderful way to learn.

I have used ML Solar with no problems or complaints. I ordered B Grade cells and that's exactly what I got. Only 4 cells out of 80 were bad. Just test for Amperage under a constant light source and the bad cells are obvious.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, for projects of 100 Watts or less DIY makes perfect sense to me. For anything large scale it is just insane and impossible to jump through all the hoops, and just not worth the trouble or the money.

Good Luck,
Green

[Caliban]

This turns out not to be the case

Sounds a little paranoid to me if you think people like russ are blocking others attempts to make their own solar panels. He is trying to explain that none of the single solar cell sellers have in the past and probably in the future provided Grade A units. They are selling seconds and scrap which costs them 5cents per watt and sells at 10 times that much.

If you think that people on eBay are reliable because no one has said anything bad about them then you are mistaken. Most of the time the feedback on eBay happens right after the product is received not after it has been in use for a while. By the time people realize they have purchased junk it is too late to go back and change your feedback so the seller looks as though they have a A++ rating but they really don't. People just stop buying from them but there are millions of others in the wings who want to save money and get lured into buying crap.

If you have done any research in the cost per watt of solar panels you will have seen that only 5 years ago you would need to pay close to $8/watt for a finished panel and today you can get them at and below $1/watt because the manufacturers are liquidating their warehouses.

Substantiate this statement with references and links. Put up or shut up. I spend 2 hours a week researching the net and see NOTHING to lend credence to your statement.

[Caliban]

Thanks! But why limit to 100 Watts?

I actually believed in the conspiracy theories regarding solar until recently. After much research I'm finding there are very good reasons for MOST of the regulations in place. It's actually mostly due to safety and accountability. I talked with my insurance company and they were fine with my homemade panels IF I didn't mount them directly on my roof or use them in ANY of the AC premises wiring (Grid Interconnection or off Grid AC). There are exceptions where I can run DC into my house but it must meet NEC Code. I believe the NEC even requires all components of a small DC system be listed by UL or equivalent, so there is no way to make that fly either. Anyways... I use all my homemade panels for small scale systems and experiments. All outside and not attached to my buildings. It is great fun and a wonderful way to learn.

I have used ML Solar with no problems or complaints. I ordered B Grade cells and that's exactly what I got. Only 4 cells out of 80 were bad. Just test for Amperage under a constant light source and the bad cells are obvious.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, for projects of 100 Watts or less DIY makes perfect sense to me. For anything large scale it is just insane and impossible to jump through all the hoops, and just not worth the trouble or the money.

Good Luck,
Green

Thank you for your post! Why the 100 Watt limit though?

[SunEagle]

Substantiate this statement with references and links. Put up or shut up. I spend 2 hours a week researching the net and see NOTHING to lend credence to your statement.

Well first off ML Solar is not a US manufacturer. They are a wholesale distributor of all types of solar products like Sharp, JinKo, Enphase, Cotek, Sunnyboy, Morningstar, etc. They are located in Campbell CA and have acquired a lot of inventory so they can sell for less. Some of it is top notch like the Morningstar and other items are not. The single cells may be left overs from Sharp or some other Asian solar panel company. You will never find out because there is not serial number on them to track.

Just because you have not seen complaints against them doesn't mean there aren't any so please tone down your attitude and please listen when I say that when you purchase from eBay you won't always get what you expect. I have probably made thousand of $$ of purchases from eBay and Amazon and while I am very satisfied with 98% of them there have been a few dealers that have sent me junk and are nothing but thief's.

As for substantiating my statement, I will ask you if you have gone back and made corrections to your feedback on eBay concerning a seller. Once you have submitted feedback there is no way to change what you said. You can add a note or complain but the feedback is what you wrote.

If you really feel you can make solar panels for less than you can purchase them then please go ahead and do so. I have done nothing except try to warn you and others that this avenue is a dead end where you will spend a lot of money without much results.

[Solaron]

Russ,

So why don't you leave the DIY section to those of us that appreciate it and stay out of everyones conversation. I sense you have an egotistic personality and think you know everything and perhaps you know alot, it's just how you package and send it to us. Learn some tact and then come back and talk with us.

[SunEagle]

Russ,

So why don't you leave the DIY section to those of us that appreciate it and stay out of everyones conversation. I sense you have an egotistic personality and think you know everything and perhaps you know alot, it's just how you package and send it to us. Learn some tact and then come back and talk with us.

Funny. I accused russ of the same thing a few months ago but now I realize that is how he gets his point across to others that are sometimes unwilling to listen to reason. At some point in time you too will get fed up with someone and end up being very blunt during an answer.

I respect russ because he is knowledgeable concerning solar technology.

If someone is too thin skinned to take hard feedback then maybe they need to step back and don't let it become a personal issue. Let it go and try to understand the point of view of the person giving them feedback. You might learn something. I know I always try to learn something because I don't know everything.

[SkywaveTDR]

Well SunEagle,
It is often times the case where people on E bay are selling junk and those that are not in that area of business do not know better- maybe me included.
That is why I am here and looking into furthering my knowledge of the subject. It is also sometimes true that we can come across an installer of PV systems that of course will not like or have anything good to say about self made systems. We don't know if you are one of those. Thus the aggravating comments. We want to believe that a good panel could be made with good cells and common everyday items as is seen on the Internet but if the task results in junk, then why isn't there a video on there indicating the truth to help people from going down the wrong path? Is there a reason to keep it a secret?
The fact I see is that there are these characters on the internet making their own panels, constructing a frame to set them up and then showing reading and actual systems that are in operation. It is before our eyes and so we are not prone to think that it can not be done. Now the longevity of these panels may be another subject- the demonstration may be in the SW where rain falls rarely but that is not the case in Chicago, so my choice of a wood frame even if painted will not last 20 years- I know that so that is why my first post asked what is used in the real panels? Nobody came up with an answer.
In any event, thank you for taking the time to point out these weaknesses in home made panels so if nothing else we can say that we did hear about them.

[Caliban]

One of us is missing the point here.

This is just what this forum needs apparently. Clearly I've already committed to building my own panels based on other sources of information than what is essentially your opinion only since you still refuse to substantiate any claims you're making and still you persist in the same criticisms that I've found after actually being silly enough to listen to who in fact are not involved in DIY but persist in expressing opinions.

Please just leave my threads alone. You have nothing to say of interest to me.

[Solaron]

As i said, it's in his delivery. No excuses for coming accross the way he does to people he doen't know that are looking for advice. If it bothers him that much to give advice why is he giving it?

Funny. I accused russ of the same thing a few months ago but now I realize that is how he gets his point across to others that are sometimes unwilling to listen to reason. At some point in time you too will get fed up with someone and end up being very blunt during an answer.

I respect russ because he is knowledgeable concerning solar technology.

If someone is too thin skinned to take hard feedback then maybe they need to step back and don't let it become a personal issue. Let it go and try to understand the point of view of the person giving them feedback. You might learn something. I know I always try to learn something because I don't know everything.

[SunEagle]

Well SunEagle,
It is often times the case where people on E bay are selling junk and those that are not in that area of business do not know better- maybe me included.
That is why I am here and looking into furthering my knowledge of the subject. It is also sometimes true that we can come across an installer of PV systems that of course will not like or have anything good to say about self made systems. We don't know if you are one of those. Thus the aggravating comments. We want to believe that a good panel could be made with good cells and common everyday items as is seen on the Internet but if the task results in junk, then why isn't there a video on there indicating the truth to help people from going down the wrong path? Is there a reason to keep it a secret?
The fact I see is that there are these characters on the internet making their own panels, constructing a frame to set them up and then showing reading and actual systems that are in operation. It is before our eyes and so we are not prone to think that it can not be done. Now the longevity of these panels may be another subject- the demonstration may be in the SW where rain falls rarely but that is not the case in Chicago, so my choice of a wood frame even if painted will not last 20 years- I know that so that is why my first post asked what is used in the real panels? Nobody came up with an answer.
In any event, thank you for taking the time to point out these weaknesses in home made panels so if nothing else we can say that we did hear about them.

I appreciate your understanding. As you have stated the youtube videos only show the initial result not the longevity of the product. I am not sure why you haven't seen a video explaining the bad side of making your own panels. Maybe people aren't doing them because it is too much trouble to make the video or feel no one would look at it.

I can tell you that I know of a couple of people that have ended up hurting themselves soldering the tabs as well as ending up with a panel that gets misty behind the glass because they couldn't create the proper vacuum so moisture got inside. They have broken the cells during construction and one even had to open up the panel because a solder joint was cold and did not conduct. There are a lot of ways the home build panels can fail during and after construction. Unless you have the right tools and facility it will be hard to make a really reliable solar panel for less than what you can now purchase them for. The manufacturers are pretty much dumping them because they have gotten out of the business.

All of the panels that I have purchased have aluminum frames, a white backing material and glass front panel. The cells are mono crystalline and all of the edging has been sealed with something that is even better than plumbers calking. They are heavy and solid but manageable since mine are only 80 to 100 watt type. Most cost me about $2/watt but the larger panels > 200watts have come down to $1.5 /watt and if you purchase a pallet you can get them for $1/watt.

My time is much more valuable to me than saving a few $ building these things. I am putting together a couple of portable solar charging units for me and my family complete with panels, battery, CC, inverter and hand truck to move them. You can buy those for a couple of $1000 but mine will be about 1/3 that cost so I understand the "do it yourself" route. I just won't waste my time building a panel.

If you decide to do so then I say good luck and hopefully you will have fun and not spend a lot of money for something that does not work as expected.

[green]

Thank you for your post! Why the 100 Watt limit though?

Beyond 100 Watts the cost of a factory built panel is actually less then building it yourself.

I was going to multi-quote here, but I don't have the time. Someone said why are there no vids of failures on YouTube, well duh, everyone on there thinks they are cool and experts in their field. They want to come across as experts and how great they are, not showcase their failures.

As far as getting upset with Russ, He really knows his stuff and has a fine tuned BS detector. He doesn't beat around the bush and pulls no punches. When I first arrived here we had a few arguments. It wasn't long before I realized he was right and actually trying to protect me from myself. People come here for expert advise, sometimes they don't want to hear the truth because it doesn't jive with what they think they can do. A smart person learns from others, a foolish person must make the mistakes for themselves before they believe what they were told to begin with.

I have the upmost respect for Russ and all the other experts on this forum. I may not always agree with their viewpoints, but I always agree with and listen to their technical expertise and experience.

[Caliban]

Concerning DIY

There are individuals out there doing absolutely beautiful work using the scantiest of materials and running on a shoestring who have had panels survive anything a manufactured panel is expected to stand up to. Most of them simply report simply,"So far so good" as far as longevity is concerned. How could they do otherwise? It's only been a short time since all the components to make reliable panels have been availlable to the general public.

If you aren't in the trench with me please don't quibble with me regarding how to shoot. I really could care less about anything posted in this thread other than best price for best quality of components. I'm a big boy now and can pretty much handle the other issues involved without pontifications or hurt feelings from individuals who were posting off topic to begin with.

[SunEagle]

There are individuals out there doing absolutely beautiful work using the scantiest of materials and running on a shoestring who have had panels survive anything a manufactured panel is expected to stand up to. Most of them simply report simply,"So far so good" as far as longevity is concerned. How could they do otherwise? It's only been a short time since all the components to make reliable panels have been availlable to the general public.

If you aren't in the trench with me please don't quibble with me regarding how to shoot. I really could care less about anything posted in this thread other than best price for best quality of components. I'm a big boy now and can pretty much handle the other issues involved without pontifications or hurt feelings from individuals who were posting off topic to begin with.

As I stated to SkywaveTDR, if you want to build your own panels and feel they will be better than from a manufacturer then that is your feelings and there is nothing I can say to convince you different.

I am not trying to quibble with you or ruin your aim. Just trying to offer words of wisdom to those that ask for help.

As for you being able to handle hurt feelings I would say that your statements including the one about being a "big boy" now is probably made by someone barely out of their teens and are easily offended by those that have been around a lot longer than they have. Which resembles me.

I wish you fun and luck in your pursuit of the cheap perfect panel.

[FloridaSun]

This is just what this forum needs apparently. Clearly I've already committed to building my own panels based on other sources of information than what is essentially your opinion only since you still refuse to substantiate any claims you're making and still you persist in the same criticisms that I've found after actually being silly enough to listen to who in fact are not involved in DIY but persist in expressing opinions.

Please just leave my threads alone. You have nothing to say of interest to me.

cracks me up that a 'noob!' comes on here looking for the grail in solar cells/panels, is told there isn't one by those that have experience and then persists in not taking well grounded advice.

Russ,

So why don't you leave the DIY section to those of us that appreciate it and stay out of everyones conversation. I sense you have an egotistic personality and think you know everything and perhaps you know alot, it's just how you package and send it to us. Learn some tact and then come back and talk with us.

Russ as a moderator here, a member for near 4 years with over 5,000 posts has every right to stick his nose anywhere he wants to. If you would let go of your own ego and seriously READ his posts you might learn something. Or you could read the 500+ posts in stickies here about DIY panels and get the same info.

"No clarification needed if you read the forum posts. DIY is great for a hobby or science project but nothing more. To plan to supply a home with power from a DIY system you run into all sorts of problems:

1) UL (or equivalent) approval ain't gonna happen - without that approval your home owners insurance is normally no longer valid plus the utility will most likely not let you connect to the grid.

2) Life of the panels - even the big boy manufacturers with all the right equipment run into problems - you will be spending your money on something that will be scrap in a couple of years of time. Sealing the panel against moisture is quite difficult if you don't have factory type equipment.

3) In commercial panels cells of matched characteristics are used - something you can not manage without the same type of expensive equipment.

4) Very few people have the skill set or tools to make something like a PV panel."

[Solaron]

Guess you're an idiot too. You all go worship Russ and leave the rest of us alone to have civilized discussions. Don't need your's or his disrespectful posts to our questions.

cracks me up that a 'noob!' comes on here looking for the grail in solar cells/panels, is told there isn't one by those that have experience and then persists in not taking well grounded advice.



Russ as a moderator here, a member for near 4 years with over 5,000 posts has every right to stick his nose anywhere he wants to. If you would let go of your own ego and seriously READ his posts you might learn something. Or you could read the 500+ posts in stickies here about DIY panels and get the same info.

"No clarification needed if you read the forum posts. DIY is great for a hobby or science project but nothing more. To plan to supply a home with power from a DIY system you run into all sorts of problems:

1) UL (or equivalent) approval ain't gonna happen - without that approval your home owners insurance is normally no longer valid plus the utility will most likely not let you connect to the grid.

2) Life of the panels - even the big boy manufacturers with all the right equipment run into problems - you will be spending your money on something that will be scrap in a couple of years of time. Sealing the panel against moisture is quite difficult if you don't have factory type equipment.

3) In commercial panels cells of matched characteristics are used - something you can not manage without the same type of expensive equipment.

4) Very few people have the skill set or tools to make something like a PV panel."