Are DIY Solar Panels Worth it?

[fireofenergy]

Don't use plastic!

Plastic has more heat expansion than glass but (not sure how much more), so glass is better. For 8" square solar lights, I get away with a glass/silicone/glass sandwich.
The little 10 watt China panel I bought years ago still looks new (after being left out in the snow and sun) and has the tough tempered glass with aluminum frame (don't buy the amorphius 15watt one, they degrade, as if it is some kind of "painted" PV coating). Ebay panels ARE cheaper than all the parts for diy (unless you can find all the parts cheaper than they are on ebay). The laser cut cells are tempting, though because they really are cheap, for making outdoors kinda bright auto lighting, as the led only needs like 8 cells (4v) for its LiFePO4 battery (and the pcb for battery).
If I could find cheap tempered glass and cheap aluminum, I would try making large panels that way, Oh, and whether to use two pieces of glass or one with that clear resin stuff (and all that extra time trying to keep air bubbles out, etc) but small homemade glass 4v and 6v panels are great.
Other than the small solar (light) panels, I do NOT have any experience other than countless hours of watching and reading about other's mistakes and successes (I don't even want to deal with that sticky resin stuff). I made a 36 cell, 10 watt panel out of those cheap ebay cells and it worked until the glass cracked (a year later) and moisture got in. From there, I think it went bad with the combination of the silicone and the moisture causing degradation to the solder joints.

Plastic and wood would warp, contract, expand and then let all kinds of moisture in.
Good luck

[russ]

Methinks the poster needs to come up with a few more facts regarding plans and the cells or we can call BS on the entire concept.

[SunEagle]

All I'm after is certification from some form of authority, which is recognizable by the local govt in home code compliance as well as any tax benefits from the federal govt. In anything one tries to start, you must baseline, so if UL is universally recognized as a certification then I need to know more about what they are and use as a method for certification. Regardless of anyones opinion, they must substantiate what they certify in some sort of repeatable method otherwise it is not a certification. More of an opinion...

tsupyo

Interesting. We (some of us anyway) seem to be having this conversation concerning DIY panels and United Laboratories (UL) certification in two different threads with the same person.

Are you the manufacturing source of these metal solar cells and are you trying to find out what it takes to make them to sell to others? At least that is what some of your questions lead me to beleive.

[tsupyo]

Sounds un-approachable to me and I wouldn't even consider it. Panels are cheap compared to the time trouble and money it takes to build them and home made quality is iffy in the long term. Still, if you're into the effort and have the time then have at it and good luck to you.

All I'm after is certification from some form of authority, which is recognizable by the local govt in home code compliance as well as any tax benefits from the federal govt. In anything one tries to start, you must baseline, so if UL is universally recognized as a certification then I need to know more about what they are and use as a method for certification. Regardless of anyones opinion, they must substantiate what they certify in some sort of repeatable method otherwise it is not a certification. More of an opinion...

[tsupyo]

Like I said in your other post, DIY panels are a Loose-Loose scenario. Sure you might be able to make them for a $1/watt, but you can buy commercial panels $1.25/watt. But after you spend the big bucks on UL, all your time, all you get is a panel that last a year or two and you are back where you started and end up paying a lot more money. With commercial all you do is write a check and you are done with a warranty. What is not to like about that?

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that if DIY panels can be made and do not deteriorate after a year or two, and perhaps may even last longer than a commercially made panel (as is the case with most DIY made builds these days - I'm not referring to solar panels, but in general...) then I just might be on to something? Especially if the cost is say half?

As an licensed engineer I can sleep well at night with no worries knowing my A$$ is covered with a warm and fuzzy feeling. How about you?

Everything I build I can honestly say makes me sleep quite comfortably at night...

[Naptown]

Great Idea. Sometimes the obvious is so damn hard to find...



I see where you are going, but I'm still at "first" so I'll see where that goes "first". I do appreciate the heads up to the cost.



Ok, we'll see how this goes...again...your feedback is much appreciated.



All of this I believe is not un-approachable, but a tad painful if I have to see some panels get destroyed...

Don't forget to add those costs into your cost per watt on the system

[FloridaSun]

Great Idea. Sometimes the obvious is so damn hard to find...
I see where you are going, but I'm still at "first" so I'll see where that goes "first". I do appreciate the heads up to the cost.
Ok, we'll see how this goes...again...your feedback is much appreciated.
All of this I believe is not un-approachable, but a tad painful if I have to see some panels get destroyed...

Would be interesting for you to find out exactly what UL says about certifying home made panels so you could share here. It may not even be possible but if is would require using UL listed parts, wire, junction boxes, maybe even frames or they might want to take a few to their lab and do their torture tests like Sunking has experience with. Doubt they would certify anything with wood in it. Be ready with receipts and manufacturer specs on every part involved, even glass.
My work was simple. Using UL sockets, wire, etc and as long as wiring and structural integrity was good they approved. Could even get antique fixtures UL listed. Working in a UL fee wasn't a problem on a $20,000 commission for several lights in the same house and my buddy who got me into it even had clients that would pay the fee for ONE light.
Sounds un-approachable to me and I wouldn't even consider it. Panels are cheap compared to the time trouble and money it takes to build them and home made quality is iffy in the long term. Still, if you're into the effort and have the time then have at it and good luck to you.

[Sunking]

All of this I believe is not un-approachable, but a tad painful if I have to see some panels get destroyed...

Like I said in your other post, DIY panels are a Loose-Loose scenario. Sure you might be able to make them for a $1/watt, but you can buy commercial panels $1.25/watt. But after you spend the big bucks on UL, all your time, all you get is a panel that last a year or two and you are back where you started and end up paying a lot more money. With commercial all you do is write a check and you are done with a warranty. What is not to like about that?

As an licensed engineer I can sleep well at night with no worries knowing my A$$ is covered with a warm and fuzzy feeling. How about you?

[tsupyo]

Specifically,
first find the nearest UL office location in your area and call them, ask what will be expected of your project.

Great Idea. Sometimes the obvious is so damn hard to find...

second, be ready to pay a minimum of $700+ for them to come out and certify your project.
third, be ready to pay them again to come back if you don't have everything ready for them on the first try.

I see where you are going, but I'm still at "first" so I'll see where that goes "first". I do appreciate the heads up to the cost.

Every UL guy I met was really easy to work with IF you know what your doing and don't waste their time. I speak from experience of being (in the past) a small time manufacturer of custom lighting of which some required UL certification. It helps to have an 'in', someone who has worked with UL techs and can recommend you as knowing what you're doing. UL will certify 'one off' projects or, for more $$$$ and time, a manufacturing process.

Ok, we'll see how this goes...again...your feedback is much appreciated.

My experience with UL is with Wire and Cable products but in every test required several units and each was destroyed with destructive testing. It cost us several thousand dollars for the certification, not to mention burning up thousands of dollars of product.

All of this I believe is not un-approachable, but a tad painful if I have to see some panels get destroyed...

[Sunking]

Specifically,
first find the nearest UL office location in your area and call them, ask what will be expected of your project. Hint, if you don't know what a megger is, don't bother.
second, be ready to pay a minimum of $700+ for them to come out and certify your project.
third, be ready to pay them again to come back if you don't have everything ready for them on the first try.

My experience with UL is with Wire and Cable products but in every test required several units and each was destroyed with destructive testing. It cost us several thousand dollars for the certification, not to mention burning up thousands of dollars of product.

[FloridaSun]

Hmmm...I'm not sure I used the words I have completely zero idea of what is involved with UL certification...in fact I think I illustrated enough to already know



What I'm interested in are the specifics, so if you would please point me in the right direction, I'd be very appreciative.

Further, I do comprehend/grasp the idea behind commercialization and mass prodution, but I will maintain that in projects like this DIY will typically win out because there arent a lot of moving parts and the materials used are (for the most part) raw/easy to find (excluding the actual cell itself). With that said I didnt see anything to address the questions I had regarding materials? Please feel free to elaborate!

Specifically,
first find the nearest UL office location in your area and call them, ask what will be expected of your project. Hint, if you don't know what a megger is, don't bother.
second, be ready to pay a minimum of $700+ for them to come out and certify your project.
third, be ready to pay them again to come back if you don't have everything ready for them on the first try.

Every UL guy I met was really easy to work with IF you know what your doing and don't waste their time. I speak from experience of being (in the past) a small time manufacturer of custom lighting of which some required UL certification. It helps to have an 'in', someone who has worked with UL techs and can recommend you as knowing what you're doing. UL will certify 'one off' projects or, for more $$$$ and time, a manufacturing process.

[tsupyo]

An engineer and no idea of what might be involved with UL certification?

Hmmm...I'm not sure I used the words I have completely zero idea of what is involved with UL certification...in fact I think I illustrated enough to already know

It is expensive and takes time.

What I'm interested in are the specifics, so if you would please point me in the right direction, I'd be very appreciative.

Further, I do comprehend/grasp the idea behind commercialization and mass prodution, but I will maintain that in projects like this DIY will typically win out because there arent a lot of moving parts and the materials used are (for the most part) raw/easy to find (excluding the actual cell itself). With that said I didnt see anything to address the questions I had regarding materials? Please feel free to elaborate!

[russ]

An engineer and no idea of what might be involved with UL certification?

It is expensive and takes time. The cost is only worth it to a company in mass production of panels.

[tsupyo]

Stubborn DIY - What fails on a Solar Panel

I've been doing a lot of research and I have seen the definitive approach is to buy commercially to avoid the hassels of UL certification and insurance requirements for home usage.

I've looked around and I havent seen what it takes to receive UL certification, but I would understand the need for it to be an involved process, so before I contend with that the engineer's blood in me has to understand whats failing in home made panels. I get that wood is not the way to go for the frame and the fire hazards of bad soldering require attention, but lets assume that proper sodering is achieved, what I see as the problem is materials.

I've been really trying to work out the design first before trying to build anything, and so far I've bought a few things in bulk that make the cost very reasonable, but in my aquisitions I purchased solar PV cells that are metallic (not crystalline) and are rated for .5V and 8.1A netting a theoretical 4W per cell. So, my question is if you use an aluminum frame (I've talked with some local Aluminum framing companies and this seems reasonable), a plexiglass front, a stiff plastic backing for mounting the cells to and you use the metallic cells...what is going to fail? The plexiglass is more for protection of the cells from outright physical damage and assuming that everything is protected from direct abuse and insulated correctly/properly the system shouldnt fail.

Again, I'm only trying to understand, and no I havent built anything yet. I'm extremely methodical where a plan needs to be totally flushed out before you begin the build, but so far in all of my research I havent seen these questions answered. I am interested in understanding what it would take to achieve a UL certification as well. Please feel free to point me in the right direction.

[fireofenergy]

Concerning encapsulent

I have encased the ebay b grade cells in glass and silicone to charge just 6 AA batteries 3s2p to power a Cree led. Seems like the cells converted close to 15% of the sunlight, thus they only had slight cosmetic problems. The little 12 cell panel worked for years until it got stepped on...
However, I believe that there are certain kinds of silicone that does not go well chemically with solder, etc. Eventually, corrosion would have rendered it useless anyways.

Unless I had used the "right" kind of silicone to attach the cells (and solder) to the bottom glass pane.

For "real" panels, just buy 'em.
But for odd voltages, you can use tempered glass (bought at store supply, etc and size up 10% or more to make up for the high iron content). Had I done that, it would not have broken, but would have been larger, requiring more batteries and a brighter led. They have 10" and 14" square pieces with smooth edges (but I didn't order yet, thus don't know about shipping).

Sadly, I can't seem to find which is the best silicone for direct contact with solder and solar cells (but I know it's out there). In that case, should last decades! With a LiFePO4, a Cree XMl and just 8 cells (and perhaps, a overcharge protection chip designed for lifepo4, not li-ion), should have a solar yard light rivaling a normal 120v bulb for many years.