Done with DIY solar

[Billyjoe]

As a new member, first off I would like to thank the people who run this forum. I find it very informative and the people involved seem to genuinely want to help others figure out what systems work best for them.
I'm a hard core do it yourselfer. I never believe someone when they tell me I can't build something. As a matter of fact I hate it, it fuels my fire and gives me more drive to work at it harder. I have been working on DIY solar panels among other DIY projects for about 3 years now. I have only built about three panels so far. The reason for this is every time I finish a panel I will do more research online and find a better way to build.
Then I found this forum, a large group of people whom have put in just as much time, effort, and research into DIY solar as I have. Most of the people here that really seem to know what they are talking about keep coming up with the same disappointing yet realistic answer: DIY solar is not yet realistic to power homes in the US.
It just seems in order to build a lasting panel we would have to have access to the expensive industrial laminating machines the pros use. I have done an exhausting amount of research on different types of epoxy encapsulate. They all seem to get water vapor inside over time. Whether it be due to thermal expansion or whatever the case, no one can seem to figure out a realistic but most importantly cost effective way to build lasting panels at home.
I had big dreams to build a 9.5kw system for a fraction of the cost and use it till I die. The truly disappointing part that I had somehow overlooked is the home insurance and certification aspect of it. I guess I just got too caught up in the cool science project side of building to see if this would be legal to power my home. But then again my logic then was why on earth would anyone regulate how I try to power my own home?
Maybe some DIY genius out there has it figured out and would be kind enough to dumb it down so I can understand how to build a lasting cost effective panel. I would love that! But until then I am going to start researching the cheapest available commercial panels available to buy for my home. I will research what if any part of the labor or instillation I can legally do myself to reduce the financial impact. I hate that it makes me feel like a quitter for some reason, like I'm letting the DIY brother/sisterhood down. But I just can't crack the code.
I mostly wrote this post to vent out frustration to like minded people who can understand my pain. But maybe someone like myself with big expensive DIY plans will read this and avoid major disappointments.

[Jason]

BillyJoe,

I'd first like to thank you for registering and sharing your story. It's greatly appreciated.

Sometimes people automatically associate quitting with failure, even if it's what needs to be done. If your spending too much time chasing a dream that isn't worth the time and effort, just walk away. It's better than playing hero and wasting even more time on it.

A 9.5kw DIY system is a MASSIVE project! The guys stress that DIY solar is just for a fun science project for a good reason. Lots of people don't want to hear it and fire back at them, but this forum is about real education, facts and not chasing the green dream.

Be sure to stick around! Thanks again.

By the way..i moved your post to the DIY section of the forum. Hope you don't mind.

[russ]

Hi Billyjoe - Welcome to Solar Panel Talk!

Sorry to hear about your disappointing experience! Some things are more difficult than others and solar PV panels are among the difficult bunch.

Have you considered solar thermal - hot water and possibly hot air? They are both far more doable and it makes no real difference whether you save money in your left pocket or the right - savings are savings.

I used to live right down the road from you in Mint Hill and later Oakboro.

Russ

[rollandelliott]

yep!

Yep, definitely cheaper to buy it from a place like www.sunelec.com

$2.85 per watt for a turn key system.

What surprises me is that installers want to charge $7/watt for the whole thing.
that means they pocket $4.15 per watt.
Get a 4k system and that is over $16,000 in their pocket?!?

I dont' get it? why is a few days labor that expensive?

Better to get a turn key system and install the panels and wiring yourself and possibly hire an electrician for half a day to go over your system to make sure you hooked it up all right.


If you want to save on shipping perhaps we could order some panels together? Albemarle is only 1.5 hours away from Charlotte.

Peace, Rolland

[Billyjoe]

Jason,
It was indeed a massive project, but in my head at the time I was going to accomplish it for a fraction of the cost! After rereading my post I guess I shouldn't have labeled it "done with DIY" out of frustration. I will liken my DIY experience with something I know well, Football. I'm 4th and long so I'm going to punt the ball and regroup. I could still see it being enjoyable to build for camping, shop, or chicken coop purposes.
Russ,
I actually have two thermal panels that were given to me free! I am in the process of installing them. But honestly those just aren't quite as exciting as PV panels to me. I love the challenge and the detail of PV. I am also in the material gathering stages DIY woodboiler project for my hot water needs and home heating. I am really excited about that project! I love projects that let me get the welder out.
Rolland,
That would be a great idea to save on shipping. However, I plan to extensively research panels before I buy any. It could literally take me a few years find the right panels for my needs, save, and convince my wife that spending that kind of money lump sum is worth it.

[old pipefitr]

old pipefitr

I am not an authority on solar but I am an authority on getting things done. One of the hardest things I had to learn was a $300 million job was overwhelming if you looked at the whole thing. But when I learned to break millions down into more manageable jobs then success would arrive and things were not so over whelming. I do not have the resources or the time left on earth to complete what I would like to do with some solar projects. But it sounds like you do. Stay with the upgrading of technology and produce what you can now and invent what you need to reach your goal later.

[rollandelliott]

A few years??
Well just do it before the federal and state tax rebates disappear.

The last thing you need is some new president axing 50% savings.

I've pretty much made up my mind to go with a big brand name and go through sunelec, unless some can recommend a better place/price.

[Sunking]

$2.85 per watt for a turn key system.

What surprises me is that installers want to charge $7/watt for the whole thing.
that means they pocket $4.15 per watt.
Get a 4k system and that is over $16,000 in their pocket?!?

That is not true Rolland. It takes a lot more equipment and hardware than just the panels. Typical installer profit is a reasonable 10 to 20% of the total delivered price. They don't do it because it is fun or for the environment, it is a business and they are entittled to a profit. Free market competition keeps them honest.

[rollandelliott]

Yep, it takes conduit and break boxes and wire and aluminum all of which might cost $1000 on a 4KW system. And of course add in labor and it's still excessive profit margin IMHO.
The $7/watt quote was the first one I called. I read on another forum there are people charging $4.90 a watt installed which is more reasonable.

So yes you are right the free market economy will make the installer that quoted $7 loose business to the installer that quoted a more reasonable $4.90.

I work with aluminum extrusions every day and my business goes through thousands of dollars of metal. Also installed two 200amp boxes in my home this past year so while no electrical guru, I am aware of prices for the stuff to make a project come together.

[NABCEP Russ]

Yep, it takes conduit and break boxes and wire and aluminum all of which might cost $1000 on a 4KW system. And of course add in labor and it's still excessive profit margin IMHO.
The $7/watt quote was the first one I called. I read on another forum there are people charging $4.90 a watt installed which is more reasonable.

So yes you are right the free market economy will make the installer that quoted $7 loose business to the installer that quoted a more reasonable $4.90.

I work with aluminum extrusions every day and my business goes through thousands of dollars of metal. Also installed two 200amp boxes in my home this past year so while no electrical guru, I am aware of prices for the stuff to make a project come together.

Rolland,

I'm one of these evil installers and I'd charge around $6 a watt for a 4kW installation and I could fully itemize and justify all of those costs.

Just to note some of the larger costs:
Quality aluminum mounting hardware is not cheap. Including quality flashings, it will run at least $2,000.

Decent modules are in reality around $1.95/watt minimum. If you want something American made from a solid company like Sharp they're over $2.15/watt.

A quality inverter for a 4 kW system costs nearly $2,000.

That's $3/watt just for major components.

Wiring components and other miscellaneous hardware run another $.50/watt

Then comes the often neglected labor costs. It costs me about $800 per day to have a crew of 3 men to install your system. And in my case, that's mandated by the state. Say it takes 4 days to completely install and commission your system, that's $3,200.

Permitting can run up to $1,000 depending on the municipality.

Then there's the interconnection fees & rebate filing fees. I have to cover my insurance, gas, the salary of the person designing your system, filing your interconnection and rebate applications, and dealing with the massive headache involved in actually getting the government to give you your money.

When it's all said and done, my net profit margin is somewhere around $4-5,000. Not an unreasonable amount for 4 days of physical work and months of planning and follow through until you get your rebate check.

Believe me, we want our prices to be as low as possible because that makes the payback shorter and more people will do it. We can only do it so cheap though, plus there's a sensitive balance between using el cheapo hardware that you're going to call me in 10 months whining about and using stuff that's quality and won't have me back at your house anytime soon.

[rollandelliott]

good reply!

I think all those costs are pretty accurate, and In no way mean to demean those that do it professionally, but $7 a watt and $6 a watt is a huge difference on a 4K system!
A Thousand dollars to the homeowner.

www.easternmetalsupply.com is who I use for my aluminum. They are a lot cheaper than who ever you are gettting your aluminum from because $2000 is just too much money for an aluminum system IMHO.

Again thanks for your reply it gives a DIY a more reasonable idea of what a system actually entails.

[NABCEP Russ]

I think all those costs are pretty accurate, and In no way mean to demean those that do it professionally, but $7 a watt and $6 a watt is a huge difference on a 4K system!
A Thousand dollars to the homeowner.

www.easternmetalsupply.com is who I use for my aluminum. They are a lot cheaper than who ever you are gettting your aluminum from because $2000 is just too much money for an aluminum system IMHO.

Again thanks for your reply it gives a DIY a more reasonable idea of what a system actually entails.

The aluminum I use is expensive for a few reasons. Firstly, it's designed specifically for mounting solar panels on a roof. Secondly, it has a 10 year warranty which is appealing to my customers. It's backed with a structural PE seal which municipalities like to see, and releases myself and others from liability if it fails as long as it was installed properly.

I know plenty of people that take standardized aluminum extrusions and fashion custom mounting structures, but without having some kind of PE seal or other serious design calcs or other guarantee, that's a lot of liability to be assuming.

[rollandelliott]

good investment.

Mail a piece of that extrusion you are using to eastern metal and for about $1400 they will make a die extrusion and over the long haul you'll save some $$$

Yeah the start up costs are high but I was buying some custom extrusions and found out eastern metal could make them at half the cost of what I was buying them for.

[russ]

To do that you would have to have a racking system newly designed and certified at the new parties expense with proper records maintained.

If simply copying the system then one would be open for even more lawsuits as simply copying a shape would not be legal. Plus any warranty provided by the original supplier would certainly not be available.

A direct copy of a copyrighted drawing or item is not legal in any sense of the word. You would have to be able to show the engineering and differences - at least minor differences.

Russ

[Billyjoe]

What part of installation can I do myself?

I live out in the country, my house is probably too shaded for solar but I have a large open yard with no neighbors to complain about a ground mount solar array. I am fortunate to have access to a welding and fabrication shop and earth moving equipment. I also have the time and skill set to research and build a solar array platform and do it right. I have plenty of electrician friends and one of my very best friends is a really sharp electrical engineer. They would all gladly come over and help me out if I called them.
My question is this,
What would you advise someone like me who is trying to save on the cost of professional panel installation by doing some of the work himself? What can I build and wire myself without voiding a warranty? Or is that even how it works? Is it a case by case basis or maybe a company by company basis ?
I'm just beginning my research on this so any information, or good advice where I can find that information would be greatly appreciated.