My DIY panel pumping out over 400 watts!?!?

**Sunking** · 08-09-2013, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by astro209

I am going to rewire for 60 volts once I have completed 3 of these panels so I can wire into my Xantrex 3KW grid-tie inverter that I also got off craigslist for a trade (because it needs repair... hopefully I can fix it).

Good luck getting your electrical permits and inspection with DIY panels. I think you have a very expensive lesson coming your way.

**astro209** · 08-09-2013, 01:14 PM

I can understand why you would say that. I have been reading a lot of stuff about getting a UL cert and even then a lot of inspectors will not approve it. I can also understand why we should need to go through these steps in order to be able to use our DIY panels in a grid-tie fashion. Folks, lets not forget that we are experimenting with complex and lethal electronic systems. Just because its a panel that lays out in the sun does not mean it cannot hurt you. It sucks that the cost of the tests and permits are such that it usually puts DIY'ers out of the game, however I am NOT just looking at this as a way to save money. I am done relying on our monopoly energy system! I don't care if it costs me twice as much money, at least it will be going into my home and not the pocket of some greedy corporate executive. Regardless, if I have to pay a few thousand dollars on UL tests and permits, as long as I am keeping my panel costs down I will still make out in the long run. Keep in mind that energy rates are not staying the same. Our energy provider in our area PG&E just raised rates over 30%!!! Plus, once my system is online maintenance costs should be less then my current bill per month. This may not be the case for everyone, but I have done the math for my families situation and it makes sense for us! I am not trying to get this system up next month... as I stated I have been working on this system for 2 years already.. It will likely take another 5 before I can flip the switch so to speak, but I am working towards a goal and I will not let ANY roadblock dissuade me.

Please don't take anything I am saying personally (unless you're a greedy corporate executive). It is just my opinion, which is not why I posted this so I digress... please send opinions on my questions above! I am eager to hear your ideas!

Tom

**Sunking** · 08-09-2013, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by astro209

I can understand why you would say that. I have been reading a lot of stuff about getting a UL cert and even then a lot of inspectors will not approve it. I can also understand why we should need to go through these steps in order to be able to use our DIY panels in a grid-tie fashion. Folks, let not forget that we are experimenting with complex and lethal electronic systems. Just because its a panel that lays out in the sun does not mean it cannot hurt you. It sucks that the cost of the tests and permits are such that it usually puts DIY'ers out of the game, however I am NOT just looking at this as a way to save money. I am done relying on our monopoly energy system! I don't care if it costs me twice as much money, at least it will be going into my home and not the pocket of some greedy corporate executive. Regardless, if I have to pay a few thousand dollars on UL tests and permits, as long as I am keeping my panel costs down I will still make out in the long run. Keep in mind that energy rates are not staying the same. Our energy provider in our area PG&E just raised rates over 30%!!! Plus, once my system is online maintenance costs should be less then my current bill per month. This may not be the case for everyone, but I have done the math for my families situation and it makes sense for us! I am not trying to get this system up next month... as I stated I have been working on this system for 2 years already.. It will likely take another 5 before I can flip the switch so to speak, but I am working towards a goal and I will not let ANY roadblock dissuade me.

Please don't take anything I am saying personally (unless you're a greedy corporate executive). It is just my opinion, which is not why I posted this so I digress... please send opinions on my questions above! I am eager to hear your ideas!

Tom

That is some funny stuff. I don't care who you are.

**tjames** · 08-09-2013, 02:36 PM

Tom- If you read around here, you'll find that Sunking (Dereck) is quite knowledgeable. Whether he might admit it or not, I have learned more from him than anyone else.

**Mike90250** · 08-09-2013, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by astro209

...... I am using 120 3x6 2 amp cells....

Unless you have a contact at the PV cell mfg, what is selling on ebay and other sites, are factory seconds, and they can have many types of flaws a consumer will be unable to detect. About the only 2 flaws you would be able to discover, is high voltage leakage, where you need an IR camera to look for hot spots on each cell. Another would be at the cell edges, with a high power microscope, looking for microcracks in the cut edges of each wafer.

Microcracks just cause the cell to fail as they propagate across the wafer.
Leakage causes hot spots that eventually burn through the backing and damage the adhesive, and eventually the cell stops working or catches fire.

Any coating on glass, will reduce the power to the cells. Some panels use a backside anti-reflection coating matched to the EVA's (glue) acceptance angle.

AFIK any inert gas is fine for cells: argon, nitrogen, Co2 but the pumping action of the daily hot/cold cycles eventually (1-3 years) ruins the seal, and when condensation starts, it's weeks till the cells fail.

**tjames** · 08-09-2013, 03:11 PM

Do the manufacturers use Microscopes and IR cameras on each cell or do they have some simpler method?

**astro209** · 08-09-2013, 03:19 PM

Tjames, I am not questioning anyone's knowledge, I have read the forum rules and sunking is using abusive language and tone. I don't care what he thinks he knows, there is always someone out there who knows more. Regardless the moderators setup this site to provide a harassment free environment for people to ask questions and share knowledge. If they are not willing to hold Sunking to these rules just because he has a lot of posts then I and everyone else that he alienates will go somewhere else and this board will suffer for it.

Sunking, I am sorry that you feel like you have to demean people to make yourself look smart, but if what Tjames is saying is true it sounds like you know your stuff. I would appreciate it if you could either say something constructive or keep your negative comments to yourself. I don't know what happen to you to make you so bitter (I have read some of your other posts and there is a common bitter attitude in most of them), but maybe if you changed your attitude you would see that things will get better!

Mike90250, I have considered all of the things that you have mentioned about faulty cells and I am actually working on some ways to help avoid some of the pitfalls of DIY panel manufacturing. It is all still early, but that was one of the things I had hoped to discuss on this forum... I will now be either going somewhere else or keeping my progress to myself I am sorry to say.

**Mike90250** · 08-09-2013, 03:42 PM

There is a difference between being bluntly told the truth, and abuse. Sunking is a man of few words, and they are nearly always spot on, except for typos.

Grade school is a place to be coddled, but the real world, the bankers take your house away if you don't make payments, and in most USA cities, if you connect non-UL panels to a house, the electric company will disconnect the power lines, rat you to the city planners, and they red-tag the house as un-fit for habitation because of no power.

Or there are forums where everyone says Way cool 400 watts, you are awesome. Then one night, the electric company cuts your power (usually on a Friday night)....

**Sunking** · 08-09-2013, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by astro209

I have read the forum rules and sunking is using abusive language and tone. I don't care what he thinks he knows,

I don't care about you either. Freedom of Speech and Experience is a terrible thing you you Occupy Wall Street types who thinks you need entitlements and Warm Fuzzy Feelings. Bet you hate your parents too for kicking you out at the age of 30

Originally posted by astro209

Regardless the moderators setup this site to provide a harassment free environment for people to ask questions and share knowledge. If they are not willing to hold Sunking to these rules just because he has a lot of posts then I and everyone else that he alienates will go somewhere else and this board will suffer for it.

Don't let the door hit you in the butt upon Exiting.

**green** · 08-09-2013, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by astro209

Tjames, I am not questioning anyone's knowledge, I have read the forum rules and sunking is using abusive language and tone. I don't care what he thinks he knows, there is always someone out there who knows more. Regardless the moderators setup this site to provide a harassment free environment for people to ask questions and share knowledge. If they are not willing to hold Sunking to these rules just because he has a lot of posts then I and everyone else that he alienates will go somewhere else and this board will suffer for it.

Sunking, I am sorry that you feel like you have to demean people to make yourself look smart, but if what Tjames is saying is true it sounds like you know your stuff. I would appreciate it if you could either say something constructive or keep your negative comments to yourself. I don't know what happen to you to make you so bitter (I have read some of your other posts and there is a common bitter attitude in most of them), but maybe if you changed your attitude you would see that things will get better!

Mike90250, I have considered all of the things that you have mentioned about faulty cells and I am actually working on some ways to help avoid some of the pitfalls of DIY panel manufacturing. It is all still early, but that was one of the things I had hoped to discuss on this forum... I will now be either going somewhere else or keeping my progress to myself I am sorry to say.

Astro209 There is something you haven't considered. That is that you are not the first person to come here with the notions you have stated. Sunking and others here have had to answer the same questions and speak the truth over and over and over. It get's a little monotonous. The funny part is how everyone gets there undies in a bundle when the truth is spelled out for the in black and white. I was in that boat once, but I calmed down and listened and learned everything I could from the experts here and I'm still learning something new every day. They don't get paid and are not trying to sell you anything.

The funny thing to me is that just about everybody that comes here is looking to "Save money". When they are told that what they are doing is wasting money and that there is a better way they get all pissed. If you are truly looking to do this right you should open your ears and take the free advice available to you.

For what it's worth, myself and Sunking do not see eye to eye on a lot of issues. That said, I listen to and respect everything he says. He has years of experience and is very knowledgeable. If you had to pay for his opinions, you couldn't afford it. He offers his knowledge here free of charge. He has a very direct no BS delivery that takes a little getting used to, but once you do you will learn to appreciate not being lied to.

BTW I build DIY panels to, and I do like your panel.

**SunEagle** · 08-09-2013, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by tjames

Do the manufacturers use Microscopes and IR cameras on each cell or do they have some simpler method?

I would say testing varies from one manufacturer to the other. The use of IR cameras is relatively new in the QC department but it is a very inexpensive tool to spot imperfections that both the eye and some equipment can't see.

The testing is probably done on a certain percentage of finished product. The more tests the more expense that is added on. That is why some of those overseas panels cost so little.

**tjames** · 08-09-2013, 05:32 PM

That's interesting. Thanks.

Looking for an opinion now that you mentioned overseas panels. Are US panels generally considered better quality? I'm running some numbers and unless there's a real big difference I would want to buy US made panels. I'm just wondering if that also gets me a known improvement in quality.

**SunEagle** · 08-09-2013, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by tjames

That's interesting. Thanks.

Looking for an opinion now that you mentioned overseas panels. Are US panels generally considered better quality? I'm running some numbers and unless there's a real big difference I would want to buy US made panels. I'm just wondering if that also gets me a known improvement in quality.

The panels made in Canada are also very high quality.

**tjames** · 08-09-2013, 06:38 PM

Thanks that's an excellent point. I like to keep it stateside, all things being equal. I'd also prefer within my state, all things being equal. Local, etc. That's just me, but it's also more satisfying if the quality is known to be higher. Maybe it's not.

My DIY panel pumping out over 400 watts!?!?

My DIY panel pumping out over 400 watts!?!?

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