Help with troubleshooting anyone?

[Sargkaz]

Hi all,
I have 3 110watt solar panels mounted on the roof. They are on a rack that can be tilted downward for summer sun, and propped up more to be reached better by winter sun. There are large trees on either side of the yard, but full sun on sunny days reaches the panels at least 5.5 hours of the day. The sun does shine through trees for several more hours a day, and it shines through the leafless trees in the winter.

According to the meter, batteries had charged up daily, and discharged to 50-75% daily. Plugged in items are adjusted according to battery levels. The wiring comes through the garage roof and into a pull-out switch. It looks like the wiring is spliced and converted into different wires at this point, and goes into a Morningstar Sun Saver Charge Controller SSM PPT- 15L. It has a Morningstar remote meter. Then to two 12V 140AH deep cycle batteries, on wood blocks, in a garage w/ temps 25° - 104°F. The batteries are paralleled, then a PowerDrive 1000 watt power inverter is the last stop before in-house items are plugged into the solar array system. This is for back-up power that is also used daily for LED TVs, receivers, LED lamps, and other small-usage items.

These were purchased for use at a previous living location with a bit more sun (not much), worked fine for 9 months, then was all disassembled and placed in a shed until reassembly could take place at the new location a year later (took awhile for the dealer to get to it). Reassembly on new roof resulted in 4 good months of use (April-July), then batteries no longer charged, and over 2 weeks, the system was no longer usable. I assumed the sitting time of the batteries caused them to fail, and purchased a new pair of batteries. The new batteries worked fine from November until July again, and then the same exact problem happened. I found that the jumper on the controller was never inserted at the new location, so the controller was treating the batteries like a wet battery. Got that remedied, still didn't work, and the dealer absolutely assured me that the batteries were not damaged, and brought them back to me fully charged. They again failed within 2 weeks. Tried a different solar electrician, who thought the controller was bad...it reads no more than 5V coming in, although all indications with a voltmeter show that 22 V are coming in. The batteries have not charged up on this system even .01 since July, even with a new controller placed in December (which still reads no more than 5V coming in), although they were charged by my dealer twice, and fully discharge on their own.

Four different electricians have checked the system, to no avail, and no one knows what is wrong. I live in Kansas, where there are very few people who deal in solar, and I'm at my wit's end. I have heard from other customers of this dealer that his battery supplier is less than ethical and selling him old batteries that have set on a shelf over a year. I would sell the system and give up, but I don't know which components don't work, and won't sell it to anyone until I do. But I would rather get it working again and stay true to my dream of adding more renewable energy. I would appreciate any help with this! Thanks.

[inetdog]

Sargkaz,
Your post will be much easier to read (and may get more replies) if you use the return/enter key more often to break up your paragraphs.
A large solid block of text both is hard to read and makes it difficult to follow the logic of your post.

That said, you really need to measure the current into and out of the batteries and measure the voltages. Then if your batteries are Flooded Lead Acid (FLA, have vent caps) you need to get a hydrometer to measure the specific gravity (SG) of the cells.
It sounds like either your charge controller (CC) is miswired and is not charging the batteries properly or you are using more energy in your loads than the panels can make up in one day.
The result is called chronic undercharging and can destroy batteries in a few months.
One possible explanation for the CC not charging the battery bank at all is that the battery voltage has gone so low that the CC does not recognize that there are batteries attached.

If your CC shows only 5V coming in from the panels, then something is wrong with your panel wiring or with the panels. You did not mention whether the panels are in series or parallel, but I suspect parallel. Morningstar makes both PWM type (low voltage input) CCs and MPPT (high voltage input) CCs.

Finally, most CCs will not work properly unless they are connected to the battery bank (at a voltage of at least 10V) before you feed power to them from the panels. If you do not follow that start up sequence, all bets are off for the proper operation of the CC.

Sears has a DC amp reading clamp-on ammeter that will also do a decent job of measuring voltage for around $50. It is a good investment in keeping your system working properly.

[sensij]

22 V is an unusual voltage to be reading on the input to the charge controller. If the panels are "24 V panels", wired in paralled, and your 12 V batteries are hooked in series, then your voltage is way too low. If the panels are "12 V" panels, wired in parallel, and the 12 V batteries are also wired in parallel, then the voltage is too high. Most 12 V panels produce around 18 V max. Do you have a part number for your panels? Do you have enough electrical ability to safely unsplice and check them individually?

The batteries sound too small for your loads... have you determined the actual power consumption of everything you are attempting to run?

How do you know you are only discharging the batteries 50-70%?

You say that treating it like a wet battery was an error... what kind of batteries are they? Gel batteries need to be charged slowly, and won't handle daily cycling very well without more sun than you've got. AGM batteries prefer to be charged more quickly than your panels can probably supply.

[inetdog]

The batteries are paralleled, ....

So 22V is not unusual for Voc on a nominal 12V panel. Vmp should be around 18, and if the CC is working and the batteries need charge and the controller is PWM then the input voltage should not be more than a volt or two above the battery terminal voltage.
Makes me think that for whatever reason the CC is not operating properly or else the panels are not capable of delivering useful current.
Is there any partial shading on the panels? Even a leaf or two can drop the output below what it takes to charge your batteries.

[Sunking]

22 V is an unusual voltage to be reading on the input to the charge controller.

Sensi right here is the most important clue. Odds are he has 12 volt battery panels and PWM controller. That being said if he sees 22 volts at the input of the controller is saying Voltage Open Circuit meaning the controller is not working. He should be reading roughly battery voltage + 1 volt at the controller input assuming PWM controller.

SO OP what make and model number is the Charge Controller? You should be reading roughly battery voltage at the input assuming the batteries are in need of charge. 22 volts means your controller is not doing anything.

Second Question what kind of panels and how are they wired up? I assume they are standard 12 volt battery panels. If they are you should see a spec that says something like Voc = 22 volts and Vmp = 17 to 18 volts.

As for your Sun Hours you have major problems if they only get full direct sun for 5 hours per day. Panel do not tolerate any shade. Even if it is a single leaf from a tree will shut the panel down.

Lastly if your battery voltage is below 10 volts, they are done.

[sensij]

The manual for that charge controller is here, it is actually MPPT.

The sequence for startup is to have everything wired, but no fuses in the + line of the load and battery. This is not like some that would require the battery hooked up first and then the panels added.

Do the LED's give any indication of an error?

When you say that it is reporting 5 V coming in, what are you looking at? Is it this remote meter? If so, have you tried the self-diagnostics function described in the manual to see what it says?

What are the chances that the solar is wired in reverse polarity, and the controller is smart enough to realize that and not close the circuit?

[Sunking]

The manual for that charge controller is here, it is actually MPPT.

OK but that does not change anything. If they are 12 volt battery panels wired in parallel and he is reading 22 volts means the controller is not working for whatever reason. If it is a MPPT controller and the batteries or load demanding power he should see around 17 to 18 volts.

I suspect he has been in deficit charging all this time and destroyed his batteries. If they are below 10 volts the CC is not going to turn on.

[sensij]

OK but that does not change anything. If they are 12 volt battery panels wired in parallel and he is reading 22 volts means the controller is not working for whatever reason. If it is a MPPT controller and the batteries or load demanding power he should see around 17 to 18 volts.

I suspect he has been in deficit charging all this time and destroyed his batteries. If they are below 10 volts the CC is not going to turn on.

Minimum charge controller voltage is 7 volts in this case. I'm trying to give the OP credit for not trying to use dead batteries to power his system, but you might be right. What is the voltage on the batteries, when not hooked up to anything?

[Sargkaz]

Minimum charge controller voltage is 7 volts in this case. I'm trying to give the OP credit for not trying to use dead batteries to power his system, but you might be right. What is the voltage on the batteries, when not hooked up to anything?

Thanks for all the input.

I have a limited knowledge of all the specifics, but will do my best. Basically, I just wanted to do this solar array as a way to offset bills, and have back-up power...unfortunately the person who sold all of this to me left me high and dry, so I'm doing my best to find someone to help me.

The panels are paralleled. I have talked with Morningstar, and they tell me it's a battery problem (I have 2 deep cycle sealed batteries). The battery people tell me it's a controller problem. Right now, the batteries are sitting at 11.3, and zero charging has occurred for a month, and nothing has been drawn from the batteries. They were 12.7 in December.

My thoughts are the batteries are shot, but the distributer told me he tested them and they were fine. I think he is full of it and doesn't want to give me a warranty.

I live in Kansas, where solar is not popular, so I am finding zero help locally or regionally. If any of you have a thought on a type of business that might be of help, please let me know.

Since I am not very savvy on the specifics, I will show all your comments to my husband's brother, who is an electrician....maybe he can help me decipher what you all are saying! Thanks again for all the input.

[Sargkaz]

Sargkaz,
Your post will be much easier to read (and may get more replies) if you use the return/enter key more often to break up your paragraphs.
A large solid block of text both is hard to read and makes it difficult to follow the logic of your post.

That said, you really need to measure the current into and out of the batteries and measure the voltages. Then if your batteries are Flooded Lead Acid (FLA, have vent caps) you need to get a hydrometer to measure the specific gravity (SG) of the cells.
It sounds like either your charge controller (CC) is miswired and is not charging the batteries properly or you are using more energy in your loads than the panels can make up in one day.
The result is called chronic undercharging and can destroy batteries in a few months.
One possible explanation for the CC not charging the battery bank at all is that the battery voltage has gone so low that the CC does not recognize that there are batteries attached.

If your CC shows only 5V coming in from the panels, then something is wrong with your panel wiring or with the panels. You did not mention whether the panels are in series or parallel, but I suspect parallel. Morningstar makes both PWM type (low voltage input) CCs and MPPT (high voltage input) CCs.

Finally, most CCs will not work properly unless they are connected to the battery bank (at a voltage of at least 10V) before you feed power to them from the panels. If you do not follow that start up sequence, all bets are off for the proper operation of the CC.

Sears has a DC amp reading clamp-on ammeter that will also do a decent job of measuring voltage for around $50. It is a good investment in keeping your system working properly.

Thanks for the amp reader advice...Will do that. I did hire a solar electrician to check the wiring, he said it was ok.

Voltage is sitting at 11.3, nothing has been connected to the panels, and they have dropped from 12.7 in December, and nothing has been plugged in to drain them.

Yes, they are paralleled.

[Sargkaz]

22 V is an unusual voltage to be reading on the input to the charge controller. If the panels are "24 V panels", wired in paralled, and your 12 V batteries are hooked in series, then your voltage is way too low. If the panels are "12 V" panels, wired in parallel, and the 12 V batteries are also wired in parallel, then the voltage is too high. Most 12 V panels produce around 18 V max. Do you have a part number for your panels? Do you have enough electrical ability to safely unsplice and check them individually?

The batteries sound too small for your loads... have you determined the actual power consumption of everything you are attempting to run?

How do you know you are only discharging the batteries 50-70%?

You say that treating it like a wet battery was an error... what kind of batteries are they? Gel batteries need to be charged slowly, and won't handle daily cycling very well without more sun than you've got. AGM batteries prefer to be charged more quickly than your panels can probably supply.

The panels are open circuit 22.0V.

My remote meter was telling me they were getting to 50-70%...and it shuts off at 50%.

Batteries are deep cycle sealed.

Consumption depended on how much battery power the remote meter said I had left.

[Sargkaz]

So 22V is not unusual for Voc on a nominal 12V panel. Vmp should be around 18, and if the CC is working and the batteries need charge and the controller is PWM then the input voltage should not be more than a volt or two above the battery terminal voltage.
Makes me think that for whatever reason the CC is not operating properly or else the panels are not capable of delivering useful current.
Is there any partial shading on the panels? Even a leaf or two can drop the output below what it takes to charge your batteries.

Yes, they do have shade until 11am, and then again after 7pm....those times narrow to full Sun 12-6pm during different seasons.

[Sargkaz]

Sensi right here is the most important clue. Odds are he has 12 volt battery panels and PWM controller. That being said if he sees 22 volts at the input of the controller is saying Voltage Open Circuit meaning the controller is not working. He should be reading roughly battery voltage + 1 volt at the controller input assuming PWM controller.

SO OP what make and model number is the Charge Controller? You should be reading roughly battery voltage at the input assuming the batteries are in need of charge. 22 volts means your controller is not doing anything.

Second Question what kind of panels and how are they wired up? I assume they are standard 12 volt battery panels. If they are you should see a spec that says something like Voc = 22 volts and Vmp = 17 to 18 volts.

As for your Sun Hours you have major problems if they only get full direct sun for 5 hours per day. Panel do not tolerate any shade. Even if it is a single leaf from a tree will shut the panel down.

Lastly if your battery voltage is below 10 volts, they are done.

It's a SunSaver MPPT 15L...which is a replacement of the same type...So this was new in December. And your assumptions about the panels are correct. Paralleled Sunwise 110.

Batteries are at 11.3.

[Sargkaz]

The manual for that charge controller is here, it is actually MPPT.

The sequence for startup is to have everything wired, but no fuses in the + line of the load and battery. This is not like some that would require the battery hooked up first and then the panels added.

Do the LED's give any indication of an error?

When you say that it is reporting 5 V coming in, what are you looking at? Is it this remote meter? If so, have you tried the self-diagnostics function described in the manual to see what it says?

What are the chances that the solar is wired in reverse polarity, and the controller is smart enough to realize that and not close the circuit?

At this point, there is no error.

The remote meter is saying 5V...usually it is sitting at 3V. This is a new controller since December...I thought the old one was bad, so I replaced it, but this one is giving the same readings.

I will ask a local electrician about your last question...I hadn't thought about that yet! Surely the last two solar guys would have noticed that, but you never know.

[Sargkaz]

OK but that does not change anything. If they are 12 volt battery panels wired in parallel and he is reading 22 volts means the controller is not working for whatever reason. If it is a MPPT controller and the batteries or load demanding power he should see around 17 to 18 volts.

I suspect he has been in deficit charging all this time and destroyed his batteries. If they are below 10 volts the CC is not going to turn on.

This has been 2 different controllers giving the same low readings...they used to read 17, but now the highest has only been 5. Batteries are at 11.3.